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When a video codec wins an Emmy
- ChrisArchitect 11mo agoRelated: AV1 powers approximately 30% of Netflix viewing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46155135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46155135
- shmerl 11mo ago> AV1 is also the foundation for the image format AVIF, which is deployed across browsers and provides excellent compression for still and animated images I wish adoption was better. When will Wikipedia support AVIF?
- bjoli 11mo agoWhat does it bring over jpegxl?
- shmerl 11mo agoWay wider browser adoption, potential to evolve together with AV#, since it's using a container format, so it shouldn't be limited to AV1 base. I.e. sites just need to adopt AVIF, and I expect then seamless ability to start using AV2 (and on) there without sites needing another wave of adding a new mime type and etc. which seems to be a huge hurdle. Same as let's say Webm can contain AV1, AV2 etc.
- lawrencejgd 11mo agoIt doesn't matter that AVIF uses the same container for AV1 or AV2 based encoding, if the browsers don't have the right decoder for it then they can't decode it. An example of this is MP4: Browsers can decode videos encoded with H264 in MP4 containers, but not H265 even if it uses the same container, because one thing is the container and another thing is the codec, they're related but they aren't the same.
- shmerl 11mo agoBrowser adoption happens way faster than sites adoption (as current AVIF itself clearly demonstrates), so same container does matter to reduce contention on sites adoption side. I.e. once browser adoption happens you'll be able to use AV2 for AVIF without the likes of Wikipedia taking another decade after that to add an additional mime type to their supported images.
- adzm 11mo agoNotably, AVIF uses the HEIF container like HEIC. HEIF is an extension of ISOBMFF, mp4 files are another example of an ISOBMFF format. I'm surprised how ubiquitous that container format is becoming; webm uses the matroska / mkv format but I bet if it was created today they would have likely used something ISOBMFF derived
- sleepycatgirl 11mo agoThe standard/spec is not paywalled. So... yeah.
- gsich 11mo agoHopefully never. Abusing Intra-frames from video codecs is an abomination. Use JPEG-XL.
- debugnik 11mo agoOn the web? Good luck. AVIF is considered a baseline browser feature as of last year by the W3C; whereas JPEG XL is not fully supported by any stable browser release whatsoever, only Safari has been shipping partial support.
- gsich 11mo agoUntil Google (and by proxy their underling Mozilla) becomes sane again, JPG or PNG/SVG depending on content.
- notpushkin 11mo agoIt might change now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46033330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46033330
- jitl 11mo agoMy Fujifilm X100VI shoots HEIC/HEIF, which is like the AVIF of H.265/HEVC. It seems to offer better compression than JPEG while having smaller file size. iPhone does this too. Why are you calling it an abomination?
- shmerl 11mo agoCameras should start using AVIF. HEIF is completely DOA for anything, same as H.265 is.
- lern_too_spel 11mo agoHEIF is the container format shared by AVIF and HEIC.
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- brcmthrowaway 11mo agoI'm confused - why aren't video codecs winner take all? Who still uses paten encumbered codecs and why?
- DoctorOW 11mo agoBackwards compatibility. If you host a lot of compressed video content, you probably didn't store the uncompressed versions so any new encoding is a loss of fidelity. Even if you were willing to take that gamble, you have to wait until all your users are on a modern enough browser to use the new codec. Frankly, the winner that takes all is H.264 because it's already everywhere.
- notatoad 11mo agovideo decoding on a general-purpose cpu is difficult, so most devices that can play video include some sort of hardware video decoding chip. if you want your video to play well, you need to deliver it in a format that can be decoded by that chip, on all the devices that you want to serve. so it takes a long time to transition to a new codec - new devices need to ship with support for your new codec, and then you have to wait until old devices get lifecycled out before you can fully drop support for old codecs.
- sgerenser 11mo agoTo this day no AppleTV boxes support hardware AV1 decode (which essentially means it’s not supported). Only the latest Roku Ultra devices support it. So obviously Netflix, for example, can’t switch everyone over to AV1 even if they want to.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 11mo agoI think the need for hardware decoding stinks because it makes capable hardware obsolete since it can't decode new video.
- giantrobot 11mo agoHardware acceleration has been a thing since...forever. Video in general is a balancing act between storage, bandwidth, and quality. Video playback on computers is a balancing act between storage, bandwidth, power, and cost. Video is naturally large. You've got all the pixels in a frame, tens of frames every second, and however many bits per pixel. All those frames need to be decoded and displayed in order and within fixed time constraints. If you drop frames or deliver them slowly no one is happy watching the video. If at any point you stick to video that can be effectively decoded on a general purpose CPU with no acceleration you're never going to keep up with the demands of actual users. It's also going to use a lot more power than an ASIC that is purpose-built to decode the video. If you decide to use the beefiest CPU in order to handle higher quality video under some power envelope your costs are going to increase making the whole venture untenable.
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- drmpeg 11mo agoHere's the Emmy that C-Cube Microsystems won back in 1995 for the MPEG-2 (actually unconstrained MPEG-1) encoder chip set used in the roll-out of DirecTV. https://www.w6rz.net/DCP_1235.JPG https://www.w6rz.net/DCP_1235.JPG The original DirecTV encoder was MPEG-1 at 704x480 using eight CL4000 chips. Then in 1995 when the MPEG-2 capable CL4010 was finished, the encoders were upgraded to MPEG-2 (frame only encoding). Then upgraded again to a 12 chip AFF (Adaptive Field/Frame) encoder when the firmware was completed. https://www.w6rz.net/videorisc.png https://www.w6rz.net/videorisc.png
- bibimsz 11mo agowhen is C going to win a Pulitzer?
- looperhacks 11mo ago> In 1990, both Ritchie and Thompson received the IEEE Richard W. Hamming Medal from the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), "for the origination of the UNIX operating system and the C programming language". > In 1997, both Ritchie and Thompson were made Fellows of the Computer History Museum, "for co-creation of the UNIX operating system, and for development of the C programming language." > On April 21, 1999, Thompson and Ritchie jointly received the National Medal of Technology of 1998 from President Bill Clinton for co-inventing the UNIX operating system and the C programming language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie#Awards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie#Awards I think that's also good ;) Ritchie and Thompson also received a Turing Award; not for the C-language, but for UNIX and OS development in general.
- tosh 11mo agoTechnology and Engineering Emmy Awards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_and_Engineering_Emmy_Awards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_and_Engineering_Emm...
- andsoitis 11mo agoAnd the official site also covers 2025 and 2024, which for some reason, th Wikipedia page does not. https://theemmys.tv/tech/ https://theemmys.tv/tech/
- notpeter 11mo agoThere's actually two Engineering Emmy Awards. There's also the 'Primetime Engineering Emmy Awards' given by the ATAS (Academy of Television Arts and Sciences) while 'Technology and Engineering Emmy Awards' are given by NATAS (National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences), not confusing at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primetime_Engineering_Emmy_Awards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primetime_Engineering_Emmy_Awa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Academy_of_Television_Arts_and_Sciences#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Academy_of_Television...
- bobdvb 11mo agoOne of my projects won one of these. It was for standardising widescreen switching signals, in the early 2000s that was a big issue because each company had a different interpretation of what the flags meant. Thus when you were watching TV you would often get the wrong behaviour and distorted pictures. A small group of us sat down and agreed what the proper behaviour should be. Then every other TV standards body in the world adopted it. I never did get a statue.
- charcircuit 11mo ago>Through the mid-2010s, video codecs were an invisible tax on the web, built on a closed licensing system Youtube has used vp8 since 2010. Openly licensed video codes were in use through the mid-2010s.
- rickdeckard 11mo agoWell, VP8 was only released as an open codec in 2010, and subject of patent lawsuits until late 2014. In 2010 the majority of (YouTube and other) videos were still served as H.264, because no major browser supported it back then and the majority of video playback devices were already smartphones (without vp8 decoding capabilities) iOS for example didn't support VP8 until iOS12 in 2019, Firefox and MS IE only added it in 2011. Even Google only added VP8 to Chrome in September 2010. So the statement is correct IMO
- AshleyGrant 11mo ago> In 2010... the majority of video playback devices were already smartphones I find this extremely difficult to believe. In 2010 the only widely used smartphone would have been the iPhone. The Motorola Droid was the first widely marketed Android device in the US and was only launched in late 2009.
- rickdeckard 11mo agoThe full context, to avoid confusion: "because no major browser supported it back then and the majority of video playback devices were already smartphones (without vp8 decoding capabilities)" No major browsers didn't support VP8 back then, and among the remaining devices (other appliances than PCs with those Browsers) the majority of video playback devices were already smartphones (not supporting VP8 in 2010). Apologies for the lack of clarity.
- jorvi 11mo agoWrong. Google aggressively enabled VP8 on YouTube even when there was very little hardware decode. Saved a few megabits per stream on their side, nuked everyone's battery but hey Google didn't give a hoot because that was an externalized cost. It's why the h264ify extension existed, and forced h264 was for that time a large part of the reason Safari had vastly superior battery life.
- dchest 11mo agoWOFF2 font format also won Emmy in 2022 https://fonts.googleblog.com/2022/06/emmy-award-for-web-fonts-faster-online.html https://fonts.googleblog.com/2022/06/emmy-award-for-web-font...
- albert_e 11mo agoI recently learnt that one can download WOFF files from any website that uses them, and convert them into TTF files (using an online tool like CloudConvert) if we wanted to use them in say a MS Word or Powerpoint slide deck. This allowed me to create a custom powerpoint theme / template that captures the essence of a particular brand.
- zimpenfish 11mo agoNow that is an interesting TIL, thanks!
- fhcbix 11mo agoWorth noting that web fonts are often split up across multiple files for sets of codepoints and font weights/styles, so depending on the language you're writing in a single WOFF file might be missing a few letters.
- KronisLV 11mo ago> AV1 fixed a structural problem in the ecosystem at the time, but the work isn’t finished. Video demand keeps rising, and the next generation of open codecs must remain competitive. > AOMedia is working on the upcoming release of AV2. It will feature meaningfully better compression than AV1, much higher efficiency for screen/graphical content, alpha channel support, and more. That's all nice and good, but please make AV1 as widespread as H264, so that I can just import it in every editing program as well instead of having Adobe Premiere Pro complain about not knowing what that format is (well, I personally prefer DaVinci Resolve, but my editor is on Adobe). But yeah, I think that AV1 is great but would like support for it across the board, on every device (hardware decoding and encoding) as well as Kdenlive and Resolve and all the other editors and everything on the software side.
- bmn__ 11mo agoAre you aware that you are barking up the wrong tree? AOMedia already made AV1 a free and open standard, if Adobe does not want to do an engineer's afternoon worth of work to link a C library into their executable, then that's on their head, not AOMedia's.
- KronisLV 11mo agoLess of a plea with AOMedia (it's not like they can't work on AV2 when AV1 is out there but doesn't have full adoption), and more at the industry as a whole - otherwise we'll still see H264 be widespread by 2030 and onwards because there's not enough interest in modern codecs even when they don't have licensing bullshit going on.
- bobdvb 11mo agoIt's only royalty free from AOM, it doesn't mean it isn't patent encumbered. I know several companies that are claiming AV1 violates their patents and they want money if you use it.
- brnt 11mo agoSome Sony TV's only hardware accelerate AV1 content through streaming services, and not through Blueray and USB... Right now, I have a drive filled with H264 content that I can hook up to any old hotel TV and play back. It's gonna be a while before I switch to AV1. And is H264 by now largely out of patent anyway?
- alastairp 11mo agoOn a similar note Matt Parker recently released a video about Perlin Noise, which won an Oscar (for Technical Achievement) in 1996: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrLSfSh43oA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrLSfSh43oA
- DonHopkins 11mo agoSure, an Emmy is prestigious, but when is a codec going win a coveted FIFA Peace Prize?
- ambicapter 11mo agoWhen a Codec ends the Codec Wars, obviously.
- DonHopkins 11mo agoWhich the free software side calls The War of Patent Oppression.
- andsoitis 11mo agoRelated: AV1 — Now Powering 30% of Netflix Streaming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46155135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46155135
- taeric 11mo agoIt really is amazing how far compression has come in the last decades. Would love to see a chart showing the progress as I think quite a bit of it was very recent. At least, I know that the videos I make on a gopro can't be viewed without effort on a chromebook.
- xiphmont 11mo agoAmazing what you can do when you throw 10 billion transistors at a problem instead of only a few million.
- codedokode 11mo agoI think compression ratio is not as important, as being open-source and patent-free. I would prefer an open codec even if it produces 20-50% larger videos. It's not a big difference between 1 and 1.5 Mbit/s. And if it matters that much for you, then you should be paying for the patents, not everyone else (for example, by using a codec which is free to decode, but encoding software is paid).
- giantrobot 11mo agoOgg Theora is right there.
- pieter3d 11mo agoTheora is incredibly primitive compared even to H.264.
- dylan604 11mo agoTo you a 33% drop from 1.5 to 1 is not much, but when you're paying for bandwidth usage that is a pretty good bit of savings. I'm not sure of anyone legitimate that's pushing that kind of data isn't using a licensed encoder.
- codedokode 11mo agoThen they should be paying for the encoder, and the decoder should be open-source and patent-free.
- dylan604 11mo agoHow many times as a viewer have you had to pay for the decoder? Have you ever paid for a video player?
- ksec 11mo agoH.264 High Profile will soon if not already patent free. Most of the current active patent are actually SVC usage.
- oscord 11mo agoWhat does Netflix has to do with AV1 codec? While Netflix’s Norkin has contributed some minor add-ons like film grain, Daala folks should have been mentioned along with x264/x264 guys who were at the origins on AV1 development, Google VP9 guys for their contributions and Intel maybe for HW porting, among others. Basically whomever pays for the show, gets to wear the crown. Nothing to see here…
- Dwedit 11mo agoWhat made it in from Daala? * Multi-Symbol Entropy Coder * Chroma from Luma * CDEF filter (directional dering filter) What didn't make it in? * Lapped Transform * Use of vector quantization for residuals (aligning the vectors)