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This article is written as though lobbying is some sort of unstoppable force. EU regulators are paid out of EU taxpayers' money, taken by an actual unstoppable

This article is written as though lobbying is some sort of unstoppable force. EU regulators are paid out of EU taxpayers' money, taken by an actual unstoppable force, on the sole promise that they will do a good job of writing some words down on paper. If they can't even do that then you need to blame them. Not people who talk to them.

inglor_cz 11mo ago
Qatargate, Mogherinigate, there is no shortage of palms wanting to be greased in Brussels. They are just less blatant about it than Trump or Witkoff.
- dv_dt 11mo ago
  I just wish for once that the palms were being greased to do something net positive. There is a lot of money to be made actually solving climate, energy, and housing problems. It would easily be a net economic benefit with many profits being made along the way, with benefits for affordable housing. I blame an international right that is more intent on looking backwards than forwards, and a left that sees only the real problems, but tends to proscribe surface level direct fixes while eschews grabbing the more indirect budget and financial levers that the right happily throws around.
  - potato3732842 11mo ago
    > There is a lot of money to be made actually solving climate, energy, and housing problems. Yeah. That's the problem. These sleaze-bags get the laws and the rules and the theoretically optional best practices that aren't actually optional crafted so that their buddies or the industries they represent get work and money shoveled at them. I can't put up solar panels, without a goddamn government fee, the fee is nominal, it's a pretext to force me to have an electrician do it or pay him to sign off on my work. And the useful idiots eat that shit right up because "what if your house burns down" as if the positive of the solar panels isn't a difference between a 1/1mil and a 2/1mil chance of that. That's just one example. Examples abound in every industry. It's not about the climate or the environment or safety or any other one of the "public goods" that gets half the population to turn their already malfunctioning brain off. Those are just bullshit pretexts because they know that people care about those things on surface level so if you can make legalized graft sail under that flag then people will support it.
otikik 11mo ago
I can blame both. I have a big heart.
RobertoG 11mo ago
"Another three meetings the Roundtable held were not found in the EU Transparency Register(opens in new window) at all." That's illegal behavior by foreign interests. And yes, in practice, lobbying is kind of an unstoppable force. Those companies have people that its only work is to influence the people in charge. They have personal relationship with those people and they are all friends. It's a good thing to have friends, you never know where you will find yourself when your politics work finish. If something doesn't work, they will try again next week or next year. It's their work, after all.
- IsTom 11mo ago
  That kind of sounds like they should be put in jail to stop this.
- philipallstar 11mo ago
  > Those companies have people that its only work is to influence the people in charge Taxpayers and companies have some of the fruits of their work taken by force to fund the people in charge, regardless of performance. So the people in charge do not perform.
pyrale 11mo ago
> This article is written as though lobbying is some sort of unstoppable force. The issue here is that the line between lobbying and corruption is very thin and blurry. For instance, the relation between Nellie Kroes and Uber is not an easy one to classify in a judicial context. Who officially pays you has little value in corruption cases. Whether the main culprit is the bribing corporation or the bribed official is also not very interesting. And while lobbying from corporations is not an unstoppable force, it has certainly shown to be overwhelmingly strong when compared to the lobbying power of individual citizens or non-profit citizen groups.
- philipallstar 11mo ago
  > And while lobbying from corporations is not an unstoppable force, it has certainly shown to be overwhelmingly strong when compared to the lobbying power of individual citizens or non-profit citizen groups. That's what I'm saying. Why is that? For example: nepotists hire family members over other people. Would you describe that as "And while being a family member is not an unstoppable force, it has certainly shown to be overwhelmingly strong when compared to the hiring chances of other people." Or would you say "nepotist bad"? And doubly so when you're forced by law to fund the nepotist's salary?
  - pyrale 11mo ago
    > Why is that? Well, if I'm very motivated, I might write a letter to my MP once or twice in my life. I could do more, but I simply have other stuff to do with my life, including my own work. A corporation, on the other hand, may hire people to pester my MP eight hours a day. These people may have enough money to treat my MP to a lunch, etc. And when my MP stops being elected, that corporation may offer them a job. Why isn't really an enigma here.
- ninalanyon 11mo ago
  The line is not thin, it doesn't exist. All lobbying is corruption. If it were not none of the parties would object to all of the proceedings and data being public.
cwillu 11mo ago
We can blame both the people who seek to buy power and those who can be bought.
cess11 11mo ago
With the EU it kind of is, lobbying is institutionally embedded under the guise of regulating it. Being the group that first makes a move or at least moves early and sets the 'frame' usually has a massive influence on the outcome. Which is by design since the early EEC days. See e.g. https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A168592&dswid=-3115 https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A168... .
ElFitz 11mo ago
I remember reading that one of the issue regarding the EU and it’s institutions' exposure to lobbyists was that a big part of the population is uninterested in the EU and EU elections. Which may or may not be true, maybe only partially true at that, and is perhaps simplistic, but does kind of make sense. EU elections do have a particularly low turnout, and if people themselves don’t care enough, then who will?
- hopelite 11mo ago
  [flagged]
expedition32 11mo ago
America has been funding right wing Christians for decades and guess what? Dutch people voted for a gay guy from a liberal party. It is true that the US wants to destroy our way of life but we are not defenceless.
- tgv 11mo ago
  > Dutch people voted for a gay guy from a liberal party. 16.94% did.
- nephihaha 11mo ago
  I remember going to Rotterdam as a small child in the 1980s and seeing VHS tapes on open display in a shop window promoting bestiality and incest. In fact, well into the 1990s, bestiality was legal and the Dutch age of consent was only twelve, so they had no qualms about public display of such things. I'm aware this has since changed within the last generation... When sex has to be between consenting adult humans (preferably not closely related.) It doesn't sound like right wing Christians are dictating your way of life much even in areas which are downright questionable and unhygienic.
torginus 11mo ago
It is an unstoppable force in the sense that it never goes away - they've been trying to pass Chat Control (or equivalent stuff) since forever - they rejected Chat Control 1.0 and 2.0 was back bills later and is looking to pass. They have infinite patience and tenacity, and vary their approaches, and strongarm/pay off politicians that effectively the most organized, engaged and effective popular activism can only delay their ability to pass legislation - and by the looks of it, that doesn't work too well, either.
maxglute 11mo ago
>EU regulators are paid out of EU taxpayers As stepping stone to well paid jobs (i.e. think thanks) funded by atlanticist influenced lobbyist. Blame captured regulators all you want, they know where their bread is actually going to be buttered, and the more you don't blame the source the more intractble the problem is.
myrmidon 11mo ago
I don't agree with this. I think the article does a good job at pointing out the problematic aspects of this particular lobbying campaign, and even how/why to stop it. A lot of people view lobbyism as basically exchangeable with nepotism and bribery (strictly negative), but this is not the case. The "happy path" with lobbyism is that local industry gives input on new laws/regulation to prevent unintended negative side-effects. Politicians have typically a much more cursory understanding of how a new law is going to affect any particular industry than people in that industry (obviously). If you lock down any mechanism like this, you are invariably going to end up with numerous laws that are highly detrimental to local industry in a way that achieves very little (compared to laws designed with input from lobbies). The article points out exactly how this fossil lobbying case deviated from this ideal (foreign influence instead of domestic, obfuscation and lack of transparency on originators/funding, use of methods to directly affect/manipulate the outputs of lawmaking instead of providing inputs).
- philipallstar 11mo ago
  I'm not saying they're being straightforward. I'm saying that the regulator needs to be expert enough to not screw this up even if someone does that.
  - myrmidon 11mo ago
    In this case the biggest failure was that ExxonMobil et al were capable of subverting EU lawmaking via external pressure (via US diplomatic channels/trade negotiation) and indirect influence by targetting individual countries. This seems difficult to systematically prevent to me, and the fact that they went for an approach like that is IMO actually a good sign that its not trivial and cost effective to direct such efforts at EU regulators themselves. What we actually need to prevent cases like this in my opinion is to hold companies accountable for damages when they sabotage legislation or research in that sector. A really good historical example is leaded gas: Industry knowingly hobbled research (discredited researchers, paid shills, etc.) and legislation for decades, but there were zero consequences after everything came to light. If there was a credible threat of company leadership going straight to prison and shareholders losing everything in extreme cases like that, companies would be MUCH more circumspect when messing with law/science.
ryanmcbride 11mo ago
I think we can blame both and I think it's weird that you think we shouldn't.

inglor_cz 11mo ago

Qatargate, Mogherinigate, there is no shortage of palms wanting to be greased in Brussels. They are just less blatant about it than Trump or Witkoff.

dv_dt 11mo ago
I just wish for once that the palms were being greased to do something net positive. There is a lot of money to be made actually solving climate, energy, and housing problems. It would easily be a net economic benefit with many profits being made along the way, with benefits for affordable housing. I blame an international right that is more intent on looking backwards than forwards, and a left that sees only the real problems, but tends to proscribe surface level direct fixes while eschews grabbing the more indirect budget and financial levers that the right happily throws around.
- potato3732842 11mo ago
  > There is a lot of money to be made actually solving climate, energy, and housing problems. Yeah. That's the problem. These sleaze-bags get the laws and the rules and the theoretically optional best practices that aren't actually optional crafted so that their buddies or the industries they represent get work and money shoveled at them. I can't put up solar panels, without a goddamn government fee, the fee is nominal, it's a pretext to force me to have an electrician do it or pay him to sign off on my work. And the useful idiots eat that shit right up because "what if your house burns down" as if the positive of the solar panels isn't a difference between a 1/1mil and a 2/1mil chance of that. That's just one example. Examples abound in every industry. It's not about the climate or the environment or safety or any other one of the "public goods" that gets half the population to turn their already malfunctioning brain off. Those are just bullshit pretexts because they know that people care about those things on surface level so if you can make legalized graft sail under that flag then people will support it.

otikik 11mo ago

I can blame both. I have a big heart.

RobertoG 11mo ago

"Another three meetings the Roundtable held were not found in the EU Transparency Register(opens in new window) at all." That's illegal behavior by foreign interests. And yes, in practice, lobbying is kind of an unstoppable force. Those companies have people that its only work is to influence the people in charge. They have personal relationship with those people and they are all friends. It's a good thing to have friends, you never know where you will find yourself when your politics work finish. If something doesn't work, they will try again next week or next year. It's their work, after all.

IsTom 11mo ago
That kind of sounds like they should be put in jail to stop this.
philipallstar 11mo ago
> Those companies have people that its only work is to influence the people in charge Taxpayers and companies have some of the fruits of their work taken by force to fund the people in charge, regardless of performance. So the people in charge do not perform.

pyrale 11mo ago

> This article is written as though lobbying is some sort of unstoppable force. The issue here is that the line between lobbying and corruption is very thin and blurry. For instance, the relation between Nellie Kroes and Uber is not an easy one to classify in a judicial context. Who officially pays you has little value in corruption cases. Whether the main culprit is the bribing corporation or the bribed official is also not very interesting. And while lobbying from corporations is not an unstoppable force, it has certainly shown to be overwhelmingly strong when compared to the lobbying power of individual citizens or non-profit citizen groups.

philipallstar 11mo ago
> And while lobbying from corporations is not an unstoppable force, it has certainly shown to be overwhelmingly strong when compared to the lobbying power of individual citizens or non-profit citizen groups. That's what I'm saying. Why is that? For example: nepotists hire family members over other people. Would you describe that as "And while being a family member is not an unstoppable force, it has certainly shown to be overwhelmingly strong when compared to the hiring chances of other people." Or would you say "nepotist bad"? And doubly so when you're forced by law to fund the nepotist's salary?
- pyrale 11mo ago
  > Why is that? Well, if I'm very motivated, I might write a letter to my MP once or twice in my life. I could do more, but I simply have other stuff to do with my life, including my own work. A corporation, on the other hand, may hire people to pester my MP eight hours a day. These people may have enough money to treat my MP to a lunch, etc. And when my MP stops being elected, that corporation may offer them a job. Why isn't really an enigma here.
ninalanyon 11mo ago
The line is not thin, it doesn't exist. All lobbying is corruption. If it were not none of the parties would object to all of the proceedings and data being public.

cwillu 11mo ago

We can blame both the people who seek to buy power and those who can be bought.

cess11 11mo ago

With the EU it kind of is, lobbying is institutionally embedded under the guise of regulating it. Being the group that first makes a move or at least moves early and sets the 'frame' usually has a massive influence on the outcome. Which is by design since the early EEC days. See e.g. https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A168592&dswid=-3115 https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A168... .

ElFitz 11mo ago

I remember reading that one of the issue regarding the EU and it’s institutions' exposure to lobbyists was that a big part of the population is uninterested in the EU and EU elections. Which may or may not be true, maybe only partially true at that, and is perhaps simplistic, but does kind of make sense. EU elections do have a particularly low turnout, and if people themselves don’t care enough, then who will?

hopelite 11mo ago
[flagged]

expedition32 11mo ago

America has been funding right wing Christians for decades and guess what? Dutch people voted for a gay guy from a liberal party. It is true that the US wants to destroy our way of life but we are not defenceless.

tgv 11mo ago
> Dutch people voted for a gay guy from a liberal party. 16.94% did.
nephihaha 11mo ago
I remember going to Rotterdam as a small child in the 1980s and seeing VHS tapes on open display in a shop window promoting bestiality and incest. In fact, well into the 1990s, bestiality was legal and the Dutch age of consent was only twelve, so they had no qualms about public display of such things. I'm aware this has since changed within the last generation... When sex has to be between consenting adult humans (preferably not closely related.) It doesn't sound like right wing Christians are dictating your way of life much even in areas which are downright questionable and unhygienic.

torginus 11mo ago

It is an unstoppable force in the sense that it never goes away - they've been trying to pass Chat Control (or equivalent stuff) since forever - they rejected Chat Control 1.0 and 2.0 was back bills later and is looking to pass. They have infinite patience and tenacity, and vary their approaches, and strongarm/pay off politicians that effectively the most organized, engaged and effective popular activism can only delay their ability to pass legislation - and by the looks of it, that doesn't work too well, either.

maxglute 11mo ago

>EU regulators are paid out of EU taxpayers As stepping stone to well paid jobs (i.e. think thanks) funded by atlanticist influenced lobbyist. Blame captured regulators all you want, they know where their bread is actually going to be buttered, and the more you don't blame the source the more intractble the problem is.

myrmidon 11mo ago

I don't agree with this. I think the article does a good job at pointing out the problematic aspects of this particular lobbying campaign, and even how/why to stop it. A lot of people view lobbyism as basically exchangeable with nepotism and bribery (strictly negative), but this is not the case. The "happy path" with lobbyism is that local industry gives input on new laws/regulation to prevent unintended negative side-effects. Politicians have typically a much more cursory understanding of how a new law is going to affect any particular industry than people in that industry (obviously). If you lock down any mechanism like this, you are invariably going to end up with numerous laws that are highly detrimental to local industry in a way that achieves very little (compared to laws designed with input from lobbies). The article points out exactly how this fossil lobbying case deviated from this ideal (foreign influence instead of domestic, obfuscation and lack of transparency on originators/funding, use of methods to directly affect/manipulate the outputs of lawmaking instead of providing inputs).

philipallstar 11mo ago
I'm not saying they're being straightforward. I'm saying that the regulator needs to be expert enough to not screw this up even if someone does that.
- myrmidon 11mo ago
  In this case the biggest failure was that ExxonMobil et al were capable of subverting EU lawmaking via external pressure (via US diplomatic channels/trade negotiation) and indirect influence by targetting individual countries. This seems difficult to systematically prevent to me, and the fact that they went for an approach like that is IMO actually a good sign that its not trivial and cost effective to direct such efforts at EU regulators themselves. What we actually need to prevent cases like this in my opinion is to hold companies accountable for damages when they sabotage legislation or research in that sector. A really good historical example is leaded gas: Industry knowingly hobbled research (discredited researchers, paid shills, etc.) and legislation for decades, but there were zero consequences after everything came to light. If there was a credible threat of company leadership going straight to prison and shareholders losing everything in extreme cases like that, companies would be MUCH more circumspect when messing with law/science.

ryanmcbride 11mo ago

I think we can blame both and I think it's weird that you think we shouldn't.