4 ms·

It’s not a fuse. It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability.

by taneq 11mo ago

jacquesm 11mo ago
> It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. This is BMW we're talking about. Their guarantees are worth absolutely nothing if my experience is anything to go by and them accepting liability is not something you should have to pay 4K for if other brands can do the same thing under $100.
- jinzo 11mo ago
  I'm sure it depends on market, but I also know 100% that if they will certify the battery as safe, and then you get electrocuted when entering your car because the battery was not safe - they will be on the hook, in all developed markets. No one else, that cares about people safety, do the same thing for under $100. Even Tesla, that almost completely disregards any safety - be it "Full Self Driving" or "let's just change this, without checking if the battery is actually safe", does not do it under $100.
  - jacquesm 11mo ago
    Given that I've tried to hold BMW to their warranty and was shafted I would not bet on that.
    - semanticist 11mo ago
      There's a difference between BMW ignoring their warranty and who gets found liable during the wrongful death lawsuit after the mechanic gets electrocuted due to poor/unsafe EV design. I'm sure BMW would love to not be liable in those cases if they could just decide not to be liable, but inspections and fuses presumably turn out to be cheaper than the settlements they'd otherwise be paying.
  - Glawen 11mo ago
    Do you realise how difficult it is to get "electrocuted" in a battery powered vehicle ? I suggest you document yourself on the matter. The only real issue in reality is thermal runaway
    - amelius 11mo ago
      Yeah, what is the max voltage of these batteries?
      - jacquesm 11mo ago
        Depends on the brand and the model, there is a trend towards higher voltages because that implies lower currents and wiring is heavy and expensive. It started out with (nominally, voltage can rise and fall based on charge levels) (30S) 144V packs, (96S) 352V is very common and there are (192S) packs that do 704V (but that are marketed as 400V and 800V respectively). You don't want to get zapped by any of these, it's middle voltage DC which is quite dangerous, so the fuses definitely have a safety aspect in case of a crash, they are to protect emergency personnel from touching the frame and exposed wiring. But that's in case of a very serious crash, your average encounter with a rabbit might set off the crash detector (which can't really know ahead of time how bad a crash will be) but has extremely little chance of resulting in exposed wiring. In the case of BMW that rabbit could end up being pretty expensive.
        amelius 11mo ago
        Yikes, that sounds dangerous. I'd personally prefer e.g. 48V even if that meant some more losses and/or thicker cables.
        Kirby64 11mo ago
        Running an EV off 48V would lead to a heavily, heavily compromised vehicle. There just aren’t components that can handle 5-10kA of current with a reasonable size.
  - ricardobeat 11mo ago
    They mention in the article that replacing the same fuse on a Tesla cost €11.
- monegator 11mo ago
  They'll refuse warranty on the XDrive if you don't use approved brand and model of tyres so... my bet is on them wanting to extort all the precious money they can from their poor customers
  - OptionOfT 11mo ago
    They'll refuse warranty if the difference between thread is too much between front and back as that causes wear of the clutches. Just like you should have the same tire on the same axle. Or if the tires are not the right size, especially in staggered setups. If you come from a car that is FWD with AWD capabilities, it doesn't matter as much. But BMW (at least the ones with the engine mounted longitudinally) which have xDrive are permanent AWD.
  - petre 11mo ago
    This is why the Chinese brands will eat their cake.
close04 11mo ago
> It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. If that was the issue you wouldn't be allowed to change your wheels on the side of the road. They'd be locked down to the car and require a complex software procedure to guarantee they were swapped correctly and won't endanger lives. This is a professional shop raising the issues. They are liable for how the repair is done. BMW is just liable to lose money if people can easily fix their car at some other, cheaper, professional garage.
- jinzo 11mo ago
  Yes, as changing a tire is completely the same tool-and-knowledge level than repairing a EV Battery. If you would see how EV Clinic "repairs" Tesla batteries, you would not say they have any concern for liability.
  - close04 11mo ago
    > Yes, as changing a tire is completely the same tool-and-knowledge level than repairing a EV Battery. I think you are intentionally misrepresenting this and moving the goalposts to make your point. GP blamed safety and liability for the way the process looks like, not the complexity of the task. When it comes to safety you bet that an improperly installed or inspected wheel or tire can be dangerous. A short internet search tells me [1][2] that some sort of tire malfunction causes tens of thousands of accidents and kills hundreds of people every year in the US alone. That doesn't include wheel malfunctions (e.g. wheel coming off). Yet this isn't locked behind some manufacturer approval and proprietary tools. How BMW chose to approach this is profit driven. The old money printing machine from ICE maintenance, repairs, and spare parts is slowing down so they come up with new ways of extracting money. Like making the lives harder and more expensive for any non-BMW shop to do repairs. They're not alone in this, other brands do the same. > If you would see how EV Clinic "repairs" Tesla batteries, you would not say they have any concern for liability. More moving of goalposts mixed with not understanding what liability is, and where it belongs. So you tell me what's Tesla's liability when EV Clinic "repairs" a battery. [1] https://www.smithlawcenter.com/practice-areas/defective-tire-lawsuits https://www.smithlawcenter.com/practice-areas/defective-tire... [2] https://www.safetyresearch.net/nhtsa-gets-real-on-tire-fatalities/ https://www.safetyresearch.net/nhtsa-gets-real-on-tire-fatal...

It’s not a fuse. It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability.

by taneq 11mo ago

It’s not a fuse. It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability.

> It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. This is BMW we're talking about. Their guarantees are worth absolutely nothing if my experience is anything to go by and them accepting liability is not something you should have to pay 4K for if other brands can do the same thing under $100.

jinzo 11mo ago
I'm sure it depends on market, but I also know 100% that if they will certify the battery as safe, and then you get electrocuted when entering your car because the battery was not safe - they will be on the hook, in all developed markets. No one else, that cares about people safety, do the same thing for under $100. Even Tesla, that almost completely disregards any safety - be it "Full Self Driving" or "let's just change this, without checking if the battery is actually safe", does not do it under $100.
- jacquesm 11mo ago
  Given that I've tried to hold BMW to their warranty and was shafted I would not bet on that.
  - semanticist 11mo ago
    There's a difference between BMW ignoring their warranty and who gets found liable during the wrongful death lawsuit after the mechanic gets electrocuted due to poor/unsafe EV design. I'm sure BMW would love to not be liable in those cases if they could just decide not to be liable, but inspections and fuses presumably turn out to be cheaper than the settlements they'd otherwise be paying.
- Glawen 11mo ago
  Do you realise how difficult it is to get "electrocuted" in a battery powered vehicle ? I suggest you document yourself on the matter. The only real issue in reality is thermal runaway
  - amelius 11mo ago
    Yeah, what is the max voltage of these batteries?
    - jacquesm 11mo ago
      Depends on the brand and the model, there is a trend towards higher voltages because that implies lower currents and wiring is heavy and expensive. It started out with (nominally, voltage can rise and fall based on charge levels) (30S) 144V packs, (96S) 352V is very common and there are (192S) packs that do 704V (but that are marketed as 400V and 800V respectively). You don't want to get zapped by any of these, it's middle voltage DC which is quite dangerous, so the fuses definitely have a safety aspect in case of a crash, they are to protect emergency personnel from touching the frame and exposed wiring. But that's in case of a very serious crash, your average encounter with a rabbit might set off the crash detector (which can't really know ahead of time how bad a crash will be) but has extremely little chance of resulting in exposed wiring. In the case of BMW that rabbit could end up being pretty expensive.
      - amelius 11mo ago
        Yikes, that sounds dangerous. I'd personally prefer e.g. 48V even if that meant some more losses and/or thicker cables.
        Kirby64 11mo ago
        Running an EV off 48V would lead to a heavily, heavily compromised vehicle. There just aren’t components that can handle 5-10kA of current with a reasonable size.
- ricardobeat 11mo ago
  They mention in the article that replacing the same fuse on a Tesla cost €11.
monegator 11mo ago
They'll refuse warranty on the XDrive if you don't use approved brand and model of tyres so... my bet is on them wanting to extort all the precious money they can from their poor customers
- OptionOfT 11mo ago
  They'll refuse warranty if the difference between thread is too much between front and back as that causes wear of the clutches. Just like you should have the same tire on the same axle. Or if the tires are not the right size, especially in staggered setups. If you come from a car that is FWD with AWD capabilities, it doesn't matter as much. But BMW (at least the ones with the engine mounted longitudinally) which have xDrive are permanent AWD.
- petre 11mo ago
  This is why the Chinese brands will eat their cake.

close04 11mo ago

> It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. If that was the issue you wouldn't be allowed to change your wheels on the side of the road. They'd be locked down to the car and require a complex software procedure to guarantee they were swapped correctly and won't endanger lives. This is a professional shop raising the issues. They are liable for how the repair is done. BMW is just liable to lose money if people can easily fix their car at some other, cheaper, professional garage.

jinzo 11mo ago
Yes, as changing a tire is completely the same tool-and-knowledge level than repairing a EV Battery. If you would see how EV Clinic "repairs" Tesla batteries, you would not say they have any concern for liability.
- close04 11mo ago
  > Yes, as changing a tire is completely the same tool-and-knowledge level than repairing a EV Battery. I think you are intentionally misrepresenting this and moving the goalposts to make your point. GP blamed safety and liability for the way the process looks like, not the complexity of the task. When it comes to safety you bet that an improperly installed or inspected wheel or tire can be dangerous. A short internet search tells me [1][2] that some sort of tire malfunction causes tens of thousands of accidents and kills hundreds of people every year in the US alone. That doesn't include wheel malfunctions (e.g. wheel coming off). Yet this isn't locked behind some manufacturer approval and proprietary tools. How BMW chose to approach this is profit driven. The old money printing machine from ICE maintenance, repairs, and spare parts is slowing down so they come up with new ways of extracting money. Like making the lives harder and more expensive for any non-BMW shop to do repairs. They're not alone in this, other brands do the same. > If you would see how EV Clinic "repairs" Tesla batteries, you would not say they have any concern for liability. More moving of goalposts mixed with not understanding what liability is, and where it belongs. So you tell me what's Tesla's liability when EV Clinic "repairs" a battery. [1] https://www.smithlawcenter.com/practice-areas/defective-tire-lawsuits https://www.smithlawcenter.com/practice-areas/defective-tire... [2] https://www.safetyresearch.net/nhtsa-gets-real-on-tire-fatalities/ https://www.safetyresearch.net/nhtsa-gets-real-on-tire-fatal...