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American society is at the point where if you don't play these sort of games/tricks, you'll get out-competed by those who do. Bleak.
by OGEnthusiast 11mo ago
American society is at the point where if you don't play these sort of games/tricks, you'll get out-competed by those who do. Bleak.
- michaelcampbell 11mo agoI think all societies do this; this is just being human. All human groups migrate to whatever metric or rewards are provided.
- yencabulator 11mo agoIt's much, much, more common in low-trust corrupt societies. USA is one of those.
- michaelcampbell 11mo agocite?
- acedTrex 11mo agoBasic game theory at work right there. You only need a few bad apples to cause the entire system to devolve.
- apparent 11mo agoYup, a few bad apples start things off, and then after that many others who would have never been the first to do this decide to jump on the bandwagon (lest they be left behind). If it weren't for the shameless folks at the beginning, it wouldn't happen. But once they kick things off, it's a domino effect from there.
- shadowgovt 11mo agoPerhaps the fundamental issue isn't the apples; it's the barrel. If everything is a competition, then of course people will leverage personal advantage for personal gain. But why is everything a competition?
- acedTrex 11mo ago> But why is everything a competition? For all of human existence there has been competition for limited resources. Until all resource scarcity is eliminated competition will remain in the natural world.
- shadowgovt 11mo agoThat's one theory. Counter theory: for all of human existence people have shared resources and traded among each other. Yes, for truly scarce resources trade breaks down. So is "good housing" a scarce resource on Stanford's campus? Or is their default resource allocation schema too anti-human so it's turning something that should be a simple trade and negotiation problem into a knife-fight?
- OGEnthusiast 11mo agoAmerica is rooted in capitalism, so the resource allocation schema of scarce goods (e.g. nice homes to raise families in) is indeed a knife-fight.
- hypeatei 11mo agoHow is capitalism to blame for local governments implementing various zoning and building code regulations that make it hard+expensive to build?
- AngryData 11mo agoBecause they have financial interests that benefit from making it hard and expensive to build. People who own property will lose property value if there is less scarcity. And government workers are hired specifically to extract money from permitting and inspections and application costs.
- AngryData 11mo ago90% of the world was once subsidence farmers and had very little to no competition.
- breakingrules3 11mo ago[dead]
- p1esk 11mo agoPretty sure it was always like this
- SoftTalker 11mo agoNo, "disability" used to be something of a stigma. Now it's celebrated, and people proudly identify with it. If you're saying that people always try to game the system, whatever it is, then I agree however.
- hattmall 11mo ago>If you're saying that people always try to game the system, whatever it is, then I agree however. This isn't even true either. In the past there was a huge emphasis and effort made toward character. Going out of your way to do the right thing and be helpful and NOT getting special treatment but choosing the difficult path. Now everything is the opposite it's about getting as much special treatment as possible and shirking as much responsibility and this isn't just people it's throughout the corporate and political system as well.
- SoftTalker 11mo agoYeah, good times create weak men, and all that. I agree.
- apical_dendrite 11mo agoI can tell you from personal experience as a person with a physical disability that it's still very much a stigma. It's also very much possible for something to be both a stigma and an identity. In fact, the stigmatization can make the identity stronger.
- Detrytus 11mo agoWell, some kinds of disability still are a stigma, but here on HN neurodiversity/autism is celebrated as some kind of superpower, basically.
- alwa 11mo agoBut, like—isn’t the bleaker thing that that seems so existential of an outcome? The vast majority don’t go to Stanford. The vast majority of those aren’t valedictorian. And the vast majority of that vast majority’s lives in the US work out, you know, fine—mostly including things like climate-controlled indoor spaces, ample calories, professional medical care, access to some kind of justice system, going their whole life without participating in war…
- OGEnthusiast 11mo ago> And the vast majority of that vast majority’s lives in the US work out, you know, fine—mostly including things like climate-controlled indoor spaces, ample calories, professional medical care, access to some kind of justice system, going their whole life without participating in war By those metrics yes, but not by the more important metrics IMO of: buying a house, having a stable job, starting a family, etc.
- lotsofpulp 11mo ago> And the vast majority of that vast majority’s lives in the US work out, you know, fine—mostly including things like climate-controlled indoor spaces, ample calories, I’ll buy this >professional medical care, access to some kind of justice system, I doubt this. Most people in the US are probably aware one healthcare or legal issue in their family will derail the whole family’s future. That is not to say things are worse than before. But humans view the world in relative terms, and they seem to expect more than reality can offer. And whereas before there was ignorance, today, there is widespread knowledge and visibility into the gulf between the have nots, the haves, and the have even mores.
- ux266478 11mo ago> Most people in the US are probably aware one healthcare or legal issue in their family will derail the whole family’s future. Healthcare sure, but for Americans, it is culturally and institutionally seen as a core part of justice that the guilty have their future destroyed. That it affects those dependent on the guilty is a part of that destruction, it's trying to isolate them from others. If you still have your family around, has your life truly been destroyed? Among American people it might not be universal, and may seem absolutely barbaric, but the extreme malignance of American justice is more or less consistent with a wide swath of attitudes Americans have, especially when they're the ones who have been severely harmed.
- Rebuff5007 11mo agoThats true, but I think the blame is more on "American society" and not the kids working through the system. 50 years ago, college was cheaper. From what I understand getting jobs if you had a college degree was much easier. Social media didn't exist and people weren't connected to a universe of commentary 24/7. Kids are dealing with all this stuff, and if requesting a "disability accommodation" is helping them through it, that seems fine?
- OGEnthusiast 11mo agoIndeed, it's much more reflective of American society in 2025 than it is of the individual students (or even Stanford in general).
- lupire 11mo ago2025 didn't invent sneaky. "Snake oil" is over 100 years old.
- smcg 11mo agoFailing out of college can be life-ruining. Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of high-interest non-dischargeable debt and employment opportunities completely nuked.
- nradov 11mo agoCome on, let's be serious. Most Stanford undergraduate courses aren't that tough, grade inflation is rampant, and almost anyone who gets admitted can probably graduate regardless of accommodations or lack thereof. We're talking about the difference between getting an A or A- here. And Stanford has such generous financial aid that students from families earning less than $150K get free tuition so no one should be leaving with huge student debts.
- OGEnthusiast 11mo ago> no one should be leaving with huge student debts. "In the 2023-24 academic year, 88% of undergraduates graduated without debt, and those who borrowed graduated with a median debt of $13,723." Source: https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/02/stanford-sets-2025-26-tuition-rates https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2025/02/stanford-sets-2025... So strictly speaking, not "no one". (But certainly smaller than the national averages.)
- skzjxhz 11mo ago[flagged]
- quantified 11mo agoCultures that dislike diversity are pretty low-trust. Russia, North Korea, Iran come to mind. White American conservatives don't trust anyone who isn't also them. And so on.
- rendang 11mo agoI think the user you replied to is referring to things like the Putnam findings on the effects of diversity https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FvFN8ACY6taivkcbzDGgYy1-EPb1kbbQ/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FvFN8ACY6taivkcbzDGgYy1-EPb...
- nxor 11mo agoAlso relevant: https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/05/08/americans-trust-in-one-another/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/05/08/americans-trust-in-on...
- thewebguyd 11mo agoThere are also cultures that aren't very diverse that are pretty high-trust: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Japan, even China. Which goes to say, diversity likely has very little to do with whether a society is low-trust or high-trust. It's more about politics and policy.
- baumy 11mo agoThis doesn't seem like a conclusion that's supported by the available evidence. We have examples of homogeneous cultures that are high trust, and ones that are low trust. We have examples of diverse cultures that are low trust, but none that I'm aware of that maintain high trust over time. The best fitting hypothesis would be that homogeneity is necessary but not in itself sufficient for a high trust culture to be built.
- Barrin92 11mo agoTrue but I don't think that's out of the norm. The upper echelons of American society always consisted of a bunch of fake status games and abuses, a legacy admission is basically a socially accepted form of disability. Or non-ability, I guess. America never had a rigorous meritocratic national system of education, it's a kind of half developed country in that sense that became democratic before it modernized (that is to say patronage survived) so you have this weird combination of family clans, nepo babies and networks competing with people who are where they are based on their performance.
- psunavy03 11mo agoDepends highly on your field. There are plenty of military personnel and commercial pilots hiding things or avoiding being seen for any kind of treatment, because a diagnosis could lose them their jobs. Rolling out electronic health records has been a disaster for military recruiting, because such a large portion of kids flat-out lied on the medical screening, and 60+ percent of the population is already disqualified.
- ok_dad 11mo agoYea I was depressed and it turned into a whole thing. Military especially hide mental issues due to the stigma and chance to lose your livelihood.
- jjtheblunt 11mo agothat's interesting, in that it would be very interesting if it motivates better fitness program funding federally
- dcchambers 11mo agoLong ago I remember reading society in China was like this. There's SO MANY people that you HAVE TO cheat the system to even maintain pace with your peers, much less get ahead. And cheating is so rampant that it's expected you will do it. Really sad that mentality seems to be normalizing world-wide.
- BeetleB 11mo agoI've made it a principle to live my life according to certain ideals - one of which is not to play these games/tricks. I'm doing better than fine. Have others who cheated done better than me? Sure - some have. Why should I care? I'm a high income earner and I don't need an even wealthier life. I am not at all an outlier. If you're amongst a crowd that won't value you for not cheating, it's on you to change the crowd you hang out with.
- drivebyhooting 11mo agoDo you have children? I do. I still subscribe to your ideals or at least mostly follow them. But for lack of playing such games, I saw my children’s opportunities slip away.
- BeetleB 11mo agoMy kids are not that old, so it hasn't come to a head yet. I presume you're talking about school performance - particularly closer to high school? At the same time, we may need to adjust our baseline on what we call "opportunities". I've lived in other countries, and one of the nice things about the US is how uncompetitive school is. One could (and likely still can) get into a decent "average" university without much difficulty. In other countries, not so. You could be in the top 10% academically and end up in a really low quality university. I would understand playing such games there.
- diogenescynic 11mo ago>I've lived in other countries, and one of the nice things about the US is how uncompetitive school is. One could (and likely still can) get into a decent "average" university without much difficulty. In other countries, not so. You could be in the top 10% academically and end up in a really low quality university. I would understand playing such games there. The difference is you're going to pay nosebleed prices or take out extortionate student loans in the US.
- BeetleB 11mo ago
- d_silin 11mo agoThis mentality is defeatist. I rather lose fairly than cheat to win.
- yesfitz 11mo ago"Cheat" might not be the most helpful way to think about this particular situation. More like a glitch in a multiplayer game.[1] It's not "cheating" in that players are using the system as-is, and after a critical mass of people adopt it, there is no way to play competitively without it. The simple answer becomes to patch the behavior out of the system, although that is rarely popular with the people who have adopted the strategy and invested a lot in the system. 1:https://quake.fandom.com/wiki/Bunny_Hopping https://quake.fandom.com/wiki/Bunny_Hopping
- d_silin 11mo agoIt is cheating if you are not handicapped but request housing accomodation as such. "Cheating" is extremely damaging to the fabric of the society, making it zero-trust, while also making people lose the ability to win fairly, either because they cheat all the time, or everyone around them does.
- raldi 11mo agoIt's true, if you don't go to the eye doctor, you'll be outcompeted by someone wearing glasses.
- FatherOfCurses 11mo agoReason.com is operated by the kind of people who start the game with generational wealth in their back pocket.
- ericmcer 11mo agoCan we stop designing society like people won't game the system? I swear every social program or benefit or corporate relief program we roll out is designed to be exploited. In fact they use specific requirements (a doctors note, a set income level, etc.) and not direct oversight/discretion so it is even easier to game because you just need to tick the right box.
- OhioMan2943 11mo agoI was happy enough getting into the second best uni in my country on my own merit- I know that I could have gotten into the best if I talked about family members and pets passing and personal challenges like all my friends but that doesn't benefit anyone.