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>I long for the day that we solve problems facing regular people like access to education, hunger, housing, and cost of living. That was only for a short fract

>I long for the day that we solve problems facing regular people like access to education, hunger, housing, and cost of living. That was only for a short fraction of human history only lasting in the period between post-WW2 and before globalisation kicked into high gear, but people miss the fact that was only a short exception from the norm, basically a rounding error in terms of the length of human civilisation. Now, society is reverting back to factory settings of human history, which has always been a feudalist type society of a small elite owning all the wealth and ruling the masses of people by wars, poverty, fear, propaganda and oppression. Now the mechanisms by which that feudalist society is achieved today are different than in the past, but the underlying human framework of greed and consolidation of wealth and power is the same as it was 2000+ years ago, except now the games suck and the bread is mouldy. The wealth inequality we have today, as bad as it is now, is as best as it will ever be moving forward. It's only gonna get worse each passing day. And despite all the political talks and promises on "fixing" wealth inequality, housing, etc, there's nothing to fix here, since the financial system is working as designed, this is a feature not a bug.

veltas 10mo ago
I think this is true unfortunately, and the question of how we get back to a liberal and social state has many factors: how do we get the economy working again, how do we create trustworthy institutions, avoid bloat and decay in services, etc. There are no easy answers, I think it's just hard work and it might not even be possible. People suggesting magic wands are just populists and we need only look at history to study why these kinds of suggestions don't work.
- huijzer 10mo ago
  It’s funny how it’s completely appropriate to talk about how the elites are getting more and more power, but if you then start looking deeper into it you’re suddenly a conspiracy theorist and hence bad. Who came up with the term conspiracy theorist anyway and that we should be afraid of it?
- jack_tripper 10mo ago
  >how do we get the economy working again Just like we always have: a world war, and then the economy works amazing for the ones left on top of the rubble pile where they get unionized high wage jobs and amazing retirements at an early age for a few decades, while everyone else will be left toiling away to make stuff for cheap in sweatshops in exchange for currency from the victors who control the global economy and trade routes. The next time the monopoly board gets flipped will only be a variation of this, but not a complete framework rewrite.
jinjin2 10mo ago
> society is reverting back to factory settings of human history, which has always been a feudalist type society of a small elite owning all the wealth The word “always” is carrying a lot of weight here. This has really only been true for the last 10,000 years or so, since the introduction of agriculture. We lived as egalitarian bands of hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years before that. Given the magnitude of difference in timespan, I think it is safe to say that that is the “default setting”.
- jack_tripper 10mo ago
  >We lived as egalitarian bands of hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years before that. Only if you consider intra-group egalitarianism of tribal hunter gatherer societies. But tribes would constantly go to war with each other in search of expanding to better territories with more resources, and the defeated tribe would have its men killed or enslaved, and the women bred to expand the tribe population. So you forgot that part that involved all the killing, enslavement and rape, but other than that, yes, the victorious tribes were quite egalitarian.
  - lurk2 10mo ago
    > and the defeated tribe would have its men killed or enslaved, and the women bred to expand the tribe population. I’m not aware of any archaeological evidence of massacres during the paleolithic. Which archaeological sites would support the assertions you are making here?
    - jack_tripper 10mo ago
      Population density on the planet back then was also low enough to not cause mass wars and generate mass graves, but killing each other over valuable resources is the most common human trait after reproduction and seek of food and shelter.
      - lurk2 10mo ago
        We were talking about the paleolithic era. I’ll take your comment to imply that you don’t have any information that I don’t have. > but killing each other over valuable resources is the most common human trait after reproduction and seek of food and shelter. This isn’t reflected in the archaeological record, it isn’t reflected by the historical record, and you haven’t provided any good reason why anyone should believe it.
lurk2 10mo ago
> which has always been a feudalist type society of a small elite owning all the wealth and ruling the masses of people by wars, poverty, fear, propaganda and oppression. This isn’t an historical norm. The majority of human history occurred without these systems of domination, and getting people to play along has historically been so difficult that colonizers resort to eradicating native populations and starting over again. The technologies used to force people onto the plantation have become more sophisticated, but in most of the world that has involved enfranchisement more than oppression; most of the world is tremendously better off today than it was even 20 years ago. Mass surveillance and automated propaganda technologies pose a threat to this dynamic, but I won’t be worried until they have robotic door kickers. The bad guys are always going to be there, but it isn’t obvious that they are going to triumph.
- insane_dreamer 10mo ago
  > The majority of human history occurred without these systems of domination, you mean hunter/gatherers before the establishment of dominant "civilizations"? That history ended about 5000 years ago.
crote 10mo ago
> The wealth inequality we have today, as bad as it is, is as best as it will ever be moving forward. It's only gonna get worse. Why? As the saying goes, the people need bread and circuses. Delve too deeply and you risk another French Revolution. And right now, a lot of people in supposedly-rich Western countries are having their basic existance threatened by the greed of the elite. Feudalism only works when you give back enough power and resources to the layers below you. The king depends on his vassals to provide money and military services. Try to act like a tyrant, and you end up being forced to sign the Magna Carta. We've already seen a healthcare CEO being executed in broad daylight. If wealth inequality continues to worsen, do you really believe that'll be the last one?
- jack_tripper 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - otikik 10mo ago
    > start removing more and more of your rights to bear arms Wasn't he killed in New York? Not a lot of right to bear arms there as far as I know.
    - jack_tripper 10mo ago
      You think New York is as bad as it could ever be in terms of gun control?
      - otikik 10mo ago
        No, I don't think it's as good as it could be.
  - lurk2 10mo ago
    > because most people are as clueless as you Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
BeFlatXIII 10mo ago
Sounds like we need another world war to reset things for the survivors.

veltas 10mo ago

I think this is true unfortunately, and the question of how we get back to a liberal and social state has many factors: how do we get the economy working again, how do we create trustworthy institutions, avoid bloat and decay in services, etc. There are no easy answers, I think it's just hard work and it might not even be possible. People suggesting magic wands are just populists and we need only look at history to study why these kinds of suggestions don't work.

huijzer 10mo ago
It’s funny how it’s completely appropriate to talk about how the elites are getting more and more power, but if you then start looking deeper into it you’re suddenly a conspiracy theorist and hence bad. Who came up with the term conspiracy theorist anyway and that we should be afraid of it?
jack_tripper 10mo ago
>how do we get the economy working again Just like we always have: a world war, and then the economy works amazing for the ones left on top of the rubble pile where they get unionized high wage jobs and amazing retirements at an early age for a few decades, while everyone else will be left toiling away to make stuff for cheap in sweatshops in exchange for currency from the victors who control the global economy and trade routes. The next time the monopoly board gets flipped will only be a variation of this, but not a complete framework rewrite.

jinjin2 10mo ago

> society is reverting back to factory settings of human history, which has always been a feudalist type society of a small elite owning all the wealth The word “always” is carrying a lot of weight here. This has really only been true for the last 10,000 years or so, since the introduction of agriculture. We lived as egalitarian bands of hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years before that. Given the magnitude of difference in timespan, I think it is safe to say that that is the “default setting”.

jack_tripper 10mo ago
>We lived as egalitarian bands of hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years before that. Only if you consider intra-group egalitarianism of tribal hunter gatherer societies. But tribes would constantly go to war with each other in search of expanding to better territories with more resources, and the defeated tribe would have its men killed or enslaved, and the women bred to expand the tribe population. So you forgot that part that involved all the killing, enslavement and rape, but other than that, yes, the victorious tribes were quite egalitarian.
- lurk2 10mo ago
  > and the defeated tribe would have its men killed or enslaved, and the women bred to expand the tribe population. I’m not aware of any archaeological evidence of massacres during the paleolithic. Which archaeological sites would support the assertions you are making here?
  - jack_tripper 10mo ago
    Population density on the planet back then was also low enough to not cause mass wars and generate mass graves, but killing each other over valuable resources is the most common human trait after reproduction and seek of food and shelter.
    - lurk2 10mo ago
      We were talking about the paleolithic era. I’ll take your comment to imply that you don’t have any information that I don’t have. > but killing each other over valuable resources is the most common human trait after reproduction and seek of food and shelter. This isn’t reflected in the archaeological record, it isn’t reflected by the historical record, and you haven’t provided any good reason why anyone should believe it.

lurk2 10mo ago

> which has always been a feudalist type society of a small elite owning all the wealth and ruling the masses of people by wars, poverty, fear, propaganda and oppression. This isn’t an historical norm. The majority of human history occurred without these systems of domination, and getting people to play along has historically been so difficult that colonizers resort to eradicating native populations and starting over again. The technologies used to force people onto the plantation have become more sophisticated, but in most of the world that has involved enfranchisement more than oppression; most of the world is tremendously better off today than it was even 20 years ago. Mass surveillance and automated propaganda technologies pose a threat to this dynamic, but I won’t be worried until they have robotic door kickers. The bad guys are always going to be there, but it isn’t obvious that they are going to triumph.

insane_dreamer 10mo ago
> The majority of human history occurred without these systems of domination, you mean hunter/gatherers before the establishment of dominant "civilizations"? That history ended about 5000 years ago.

crote 10mo ago

> The wealth inequality we have today, as bad as it is, is as best as it will ever be moving forward. It's only gonna get worse. Why? As the saying goes, the people need bread and circuses. Delve too deeply and you risk another French Revolution. And right now, a lot of people in supposedly-rich Western countries are having their basic existance threatened by the greed of the elite. Feudalism only works when you give back enough power and resources to the layers below you. The king depends on his vassals to provide money and military services. Try to act like a tyrant, and you end up being forced to sign the Magna Carta. We've already seen a healthcare CEO being executed in broad daylight. If wealth inequality continues to worsen, do you really believe that'll be the last one?

jack_tripper 10mo ago
[flagged]
- otikik 10mo ago
  > start removing more and more of your rights to bear arms Wasn't he killed in New York? Not a lot of right to bear arms there as far as I know.
  - jack_tripper 10mo ago
    You think New York is as bad as it could ever be in terms of gun control?
    - otikik 10mo ago
      No, I don't think it's as good as it could be.
- lurk2 10mo ago
  > because most people are as clueless as you Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

BeFlatXIII 10mo ago

Sounds like we need another world war to reset things for the survivors.