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Valve seems more like Apple than Google: a well-liked company that has an obvious and not inherently exploitive business model. Google as an ad company was alwa

Valve seems more like Apple than Google: a well-liked company that has an obvious and not inherently exploitive business model. Google as an ad company was always destined to go bad in a way that most non-ad companies are not. No company is your friend, and they are all fundamentally structures around making a profit. But providing goods and services in exchange for money is not inherently exploitive or evil.

tombert 11mo ago
Oh I don’t disagree with anything you said there. It’s perfectly fine for a for-profit company to do things for profit, and Valve selling games and creating tooling in which to do so isn’t inherently bad. That said, I can think of a few things about Valve that are kind of bad, such as normalizing DRM with games. Linux people (including me) have historically been pretty anti-DRM, as they should be, but because everyone loves Valve we were all excited to get Steam on Linux, despite the fact that Steam is DRM.
- Telaneo 11mo ago
  Valve's DRM is trivially bypassed. It's just there so that the checkbox 'has DRM' is ticked. You can also publish games on Steam without DRM, as in, you can then just copy the game files and run them anywhere. Most don't because it's extra work and because it's hard to explain to your boss why you should untick that checkbox, while consumers who care mostly go to GOG anyway.
  - account42 11mo ago
    That kind of logic is exactly how morals get eroded and all bad practices get excused with "it's just business".
    - Telaneo 11mo ago
      Blame the bosses for wanting DRM rather than Valve for making it a default. Blame lawmakers for not regulating DRM out of existence. Valve's playing the game while still being the most consumer friendly option on most fronts, and a solid second place in everything else. Credit where credit's due. If Steam didn't have nominal DRM, I'd imagine they wouldn't have been able to grow to the point they're at now, and we'd instead have many stores each with their own exclusives, but most of them have worse terms than Steam. That world is worse than the one we have now. And if you really care, there's always GOG, or the skull and crossbones.
socalgal2 11mo ago
> like Apple: a well-liked company that has an obvious and not inherently exploitive business model. Apple does have an exploitive business model. Take 30% from every business that's not them. Apple is trying to own the entire world. They're quickly becoming the bank by offering Credit Cards and Savings. I'm sure once they get big enough they'll turn the screws and add more charges because no company will want to lose 50+% of their market. The only thing that will stop them is regulation. Apple is fully an exploitive company
- tombert 11mo ago
  More than a little irritating that the only real contenders for smartphones is either Google or Apple, two companies with more-than-a-little dubious business practices. I really wish that the Ubuntu phone had fully come to fruition. I think if a dedicated Ubuntu Touch phone had been pushed in the US in ~2013, Canonical might have had the weight and funding to make it work. Sadly the Indiegogo was never funded, and we're stuck with the duopolistic dystopia we have now in the smartphone world. Yes, I know about the Pinephone and it looks neat and I'm sure it's a decent enough product, but I haven't bought one because I've been afraid of things being missing. The network effect is strong, and I find it unlikely that my bank app or basically anything I use for work will ever get ported over to SailfishOS or Ubuntu Touch, meaning I'd have to carry around an iPhone or Android phone with me everywhere anyway. I am not sure that this kind of vertical integration should be legal; Apple services and iOS should probably be different companies.
- torginus 11mo ago
  I honestly can't remember the last time I brought something through the App Store - my lifetime total money spent there is probably less than $500
  - Rohansi 11mo ago
    You also need to include (digital) purchases made inside of apps because Apple also takes a 30% cut there. That is likely the bigger amount because it includes all of the in-app microtransactions for games.
- 11mo ago
sershe 11mo ago
Valve makes most of their money from Steam lock-in. Given these numbers and the pathetic state of all the alternative game stores, they are ONE company before Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. that richly deserves some antitrust enforcement https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/valves-reported-profit-per-head-from-steam-commissions-is-out-there-and-at-usd3-5-million-per-employee-it-makes-apple-and-facebook-look-like-a-lemonade-stand/ https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/valves-reported-prof... Not to say they are not great for Linux gaming. But this should not be mistaken for some kind of idealistic position. Windows a threat, they need to commoditize OS for gaming. At heart they still make Amazon's attempts at monopoly look like a lemonade stand :)
- ZeWaka 11mo ago
  lock-in? there's no lock-in in any of the contracts
- nemomarx 11mo ago
  One wonders why other, well funded games stores can't compete on features and sales pricing with steam? Epic is giving games away but it still doesn't seem worth it to me to switch over because they lack steam input, good achievements, friend systems, good chat, inventory systems to trade items...
  - tombert 11mo ago
    I use Heroic Launcher to play Epic Game Store games in the SteamOS interface in my Jovian box. I'm able to use the custom controller stuff with it without much problem, but it doesn't fix the other problems. You need friends for a lack of friend systems to matter :)
  - LtWorf 11mo ago
    They also don't support having a space character in your password.
- jcranmer 11mo ago
  > Given these numbers and the pathetic state of all the alternative game stores, they are ONE company before Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. that richly deserves some antitrust enforcement So the thing about antitrust is that it's not the act of having a monopoly that is punishable, it's the act of using that monopoly unjustly that is punishable. Apple's app store is a good example here--their stipulations on financial payments in apps starts to really cross the line into illegal product tying to me. Whereas what Valve has done to lock-in users to Steam is... um... you might at best point to actions they haven't taken, but fundamentally, the alternative game stores have failed because they've not really demonstrated any value proposition other than "redirect Valve's profits to us", which isn't a big motivation for consumers.
Glemkloksdjf 11mo ago
You complelty ignore the foxcon problem? Google makes money with ads and at least takes this serious. Apple just exploits.

tombert 11mo ago

Oh I don’t disagree with anything you said there. It’s perfectly fine for a for-profit company to do things for profit, and Valve selling games and creating tooling in which to do so isn’t inherently bad. That said, I can think of a few things about Valve that are kind of bad, such as normalizing DRM with games. Linux people (including me) have historically been pretty anti-DRM, as they should be, but because everyone loves Valve we were all excited to get Steam on Linux, despite the fact that Steam is DRM.

Telaneo 11mo ago
Valve's DRM is trivially bypassed. It's just there so that the checkbox 'has DRM' is ticked. You can also publish games on Steam without DRM, as in, you can then just copy the game files and run them anywhere. Most don't because it's extra work and because it's hard to explain to your boss why you should untick that checkbox, while consumers who care mostly go to GOG anyway.
- account42 11mo ago
  That kind of logic is exactly how morals get eroded and all bad practices get excused with "it's just business".
  - Telaneo 11mo ago
    Blame the bosses for wanting DRM rather than Valve for making it a default. Blame lawmakers for not regulating DRM out of existence. Valve's playing the game while still being the most consumer friendly option on most fronts, and a solid second place in everything else. Credit where credit's due. If Steam didn't have nominal DRM, I'd imagine they wouldn't have been able to grow to the point they're at now, and we'd instead have many stores each with their own exclusives, but most of them have worse terms than Steam. That world is worse than the one we have now. And if you really care, there's always GOG, or the skull and crossbones.

socalgal2 11mo ago

> like Apple: a well-liked company that has an obvious and not inherently exploitive business model. Apple does have an exploitive business model. Take 30% from every business that's not them. Apple is trying to own the entire world. They're quickly becoming the bank by offering Credit Cards and Savings. I'm sure once they get big enough they'll turn the screws and add more charges because no company will want to lose 50+% of their market. The only thing that will stop them is regulation. Apple is fully an exploitive company

tombert 11mo ago
More than a little irritating that the only real contenders for smartphones is either Google or Apple, two companies with more-than-a-little dubious business practices. I really wish that the Ubuntu phone had fully come to fruition. I think if a dedicated Ubuntu Touch phone had been pushed in the US in ~2013, Canonical might have had the weight and funding to make it work. Sadly the Indiegogo was never funded, and we're stuck with the duopolistic dystopia we have now in the smartphone world. Yes, I know about the Pinephone and it looks neat and I'm sure it's a decent enough product, but I haven't bought one because I've been afraid of things being missing. The network effect is strong, and I find it unlikely that my bank app or basically anything I use for work will ever get ported over to SailfishOS or Ubuntu Touch, meaning I'd have to carry around an iPhone or Android phone with me everywhere anyway. I am not sure that this kind of vertical integration should be legal; Apple services and iOS should probably be different companies.
torginus 11mo ago
I honestly can't remember the last time I brought something through the App Store - my lifetime total money spent there is probably less than $500
- Rohansi 11mo ago
  You also need to include (digital) purchases made inside of apps because Apple also takes a 30% cut there. That is likely the bigger amount because it includes all of the in-app microtransactions for games.
11mo ago

sershe 11mo ago

Valve makes most of their money from Steam lock-in. Given these numbers and the pathetic state of all the alternative game stores, they are ONE company before Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. that richly deserves some antitrust enforcement https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/valves-reported-profit-per-head-from-steam-commissions-is-out-there-and-at-usd3-5-million-per-employee-it-makes-apple-and-facebook-look-like-a-lemonade-stand/ https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/valves-reported-prof... Not to say they are not great for Linux gaming. But this should not be mistaken for some kind of idealistic position. Windows a threat, they need to commoditize OS for gaming. At heart they still make Amazon's attempts at monopoly look like a lemonade stand :)

ZeWaka 11mo ago
lock-in? there's no lock-in in any of the contracts
nemomarx 11mo ago
One wonders why other, well funded games stores can't compete on features and sales pricing with steam? Epic is giving games away but it still doesn't seem worth it to me to switch over because they lack steam input, good achievements, friend systems, good chat, inventory systems to trade items...
- tombert 11mo ago
  I use Heroic Launcher to play Epic Game Store games in the SteamOS interface in my Jovian box. I'm able to use the custom controller stuff with it without much problem, but it doesn't fix the other problems. You need friends for a lack of friend systems to matter :)
- LtWorf 11mo ago
  They also don't support having a space character in your password.
jcranmer 11mo ago
> Given these numbers and the pathetic state of all the alternative game stores, they are ONE company before Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. that richly deserves some antitrust enforcement So the thing about antitrust is that it's not the act of having a monopoly that is punishable, it's the act of using that monopoly unjustly that is punishable. Apple's app store is a good example here--their stipulations on financial payments in apps starts to really cross the line into illegal product tying to me. Whereas what Valve has done to lock-in users to Steam is... um... you might at best point to actions they haven't taken, but fundamentally, the alternative game stores have failed because they've not really demonstrated any value proposition other than "redirect Valve's profits to us", which isn't a big motivation for consumers.

Glemkloksdjf 11mo ago

You complelty ignore the foxcon problem? Google makes money with ads and at least takes this serious. Apple just exploits.