5 ms·

The problem they fixed is that they removed a common optimization to get 5x faster loading speeds on HDDs. That's why they did the performance analysis and ref

by jeroenhd 11mo ago

The problem they fixed is that they removed a common optimization to get 5x faster loading speeds on HDDs. That's why they did the performance analysis and referred to their telemetry before pushing the fix. The impact is minimal because their game is already spending an equivalent time doing other loading work, and the 5x I/O slowdown only affects 11% of players (perhaps less now that the game fits on a cheap consumer SSD). If someone "takes pride in their work" and makes my game load five times longer, I'd rather they go find something else to take pride in.

nearbuy 11mo ago
According to the post, "the change in the file size will result in minimal changes to load times - seconds at most." It didn't help their game load noticeably faster. They just hadn't checked if the optimization actually helped.
- jeroenhd 11mo ago
  The actual source (https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/491583942944621371 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/49158394...) says: > Only a few seconds difference? > Further good news: the change in the file size will result in minimal changes to load times - seconds at most. “Wait a minute,” I hear you ask - “didn’t you just tell us all that you duplicate data because the loading times on HDDs could be 10 times worse?”. I am pleased to say that our worst case projections did not come to pass. These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns. > Now things are different. We have real measurements specific to our game instead of industry data. We now know that the true number of players actively playing HD2 on a mechanical HDD was around 11% during the last week (seems our estimates were not so bad after all). We now know that, contrary to most games, the majority of the loading time in HELLDIVERS 2 is due to level-generation rather than asset loading. This level generation happens in parallel with loading assets from the disk and so is the main determining factor of the loading time. We now know that this is true even for users with mechanical HDDs. They measured first, accepted the minimal impact, and then changed their game.
  - the_af 11mo ago
    But this means that before they blindly trusted some stats without actually testing how their game performed with and without it?
    - radlad 11mo ago
      Yes, but I think maybe people in this thread are painting it unfairly? Another way to frame it is that they used industry best practices and their intuition to develop the game, then revisited their decisions to see if they still made sense. When they didn't, they updated the game. It's normal for any product to be imperfect on initial release. It's part of actually getting to market.
      - the_af 11mo ago
        To be clear, I don't think it's a huge sin. It's the kind of mistake all of us make from time to time. And it got corrected, so all's well that ends well.
    - JohnBooty 11mo ago
      FWIW, the PC install size was reasonable at launch. It just crept up slowly over time. But this means that before they blindly trusted some stats without actually testing how their game performed with and without it? Maybe they didn't test it with their game because their game didn't exist yet, because this was a decision made fairly early in the development process. In hindsight, yeah... it was the wrong call. I'm just a little baffled by people harping on this decision and deciding that the developers must be stupid or lazy. I mean, seriously, I do not understand. Like what do you get out of that? That would make you happy or satisfied somehow?
      - the_af 11mo ago
        Go figure: people are downvoting me but I never once said developers must be stupid or lazy. This is a very common kind of mistake developers often make: premature optimization without considering the actual bottlenecks, and without testing theoretical optimizations actually make any difference. I know I'm guilty of this! I never called anyone lazy or stupid, I just wondered whether they blindly trusted some stats without actually testing them. > FWIW, the PC install size was reasonable at launch. It just crept up slowly over time Wouldn't this mean their optimization mattered even less back then?
afavour 11mo ago
> If someone "takes pride in their work" and makes my game load five times longer, I'd rather they go find something else to take pride in. And others who wish one single game didn't waste 130GB of their disk space, it's fine to ignore their opinions? They used up a ton more disk space to apply an ill-advised optimization that didn't have much effect. I don't really understand why you'd consider that a positive thing.
- jeroenhd 11mo ago
  By their own industry data (https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/491583942944621371 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/49158394...), deduplication causes a 5x performance increase loading data from HDD. There's a reason so many games are huge, and it's not because they're mining your HDD for HDDCoin. The "problem" is a feature. The "so it remains unfixed until someone with pride in their work finally carves out the time to do it" mindset suggests that they were simply too lazy to ever run fdupes over their install directory, which is simply not the case. The duplication was intentional, and is still intentional in many other games that could but likely won't apply the same data minimization. I'll gladly take this update because considerable effort was spent on measuring the impact, but not one of those "everyone around me is so lazy, I'll just be the noble hero to sacrifice my time to deduplicate the game files" updates.
  - JohnBooty 11mo ago
    I expect better from HN, where most of us are engineers or engineer-adjacent. It's fair to question Arrowhead's priorities but... too lazy Really? I think the PC install size probably should have been addressed sooner too, but... which do you think is more likely? Arrowhead is a whole company full of "lazy" developers who just don't like to work very hard? Or do you think they had their hands full with other optimizations, bug fixes, and a large amount of new content while running a complex multiplatform live service game for millions of players? (Also consider that management was probably deciding priorities there and not the developers) I put hundreds of hours into HD2 and had a tremendous amount of fun. It's not the product of "lazy" people...
account42 11mo ago
23 GiB can be cached entirely in RAM on higher end gaming rigs these days. 154 GiB probably does not fit into many player's RAM when you still want something left for the OS and game. Reducing how much needs to be loaded from slow storage is itself an I/O speedup and HDDs are not that bad at seeking that you need to go to extreme lengths to avoid it entirely. The only place where such duplication to ensure linear reads may be warranted is optical media.
- jeroenhd 11mo ago
  They used "industry data" to make performance estimations: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/491583942944621371 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/49158394... > These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not.
  - PunchyHamster 11mo ago
    Instead of y'know, running their own game on a hdd. It's literally "instead of profiling our own app we profiled competition's app and made decisions based on that".
    - ffsm8 11mo ago
      They started off with the competitors data, and then moved on once they had their own data though? Not sure what y'all complaining about. They made an effort to improve the product, but because everything in tech comes with side effects it turned out to be a bad decision which they rolled back. Sounds like highly professional behavior to me by people doing their best. Not everything will always work out, 100% of the time. And this might finally reverse the trend of games being >100gb as other teams will be able to point to this decision why they shouldn't implement this particular optimization prematurely
      - 11mo ago
jjmarr 11mo ago
If this is a common issue in industry why don't game devs make a user visible slider to control dedup? I have friends who play one or two games and want them to load fast. Others have dozens and want storage space.
- ThrowawayR2 11mo ago
  Any developer could tell you that it's because that would be extra code, extra UI, extra localization, extra QA, etc. for something nonessential that could be ignored in favor of adding something that increases the chance of the game managing to break even.
  - jjmarr 11mo ago
    Having a smaller install size makes me more likely to buy the game if I have a large library. Game size is a problem in every new triple A release.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
PunchyHamster 11mo ago
> The problem they fixed is that they removed a common optimization to get 5x faster loading speeds on HDDs. Not what happened. They removed an optimization that in *some other games* ,that are not their game, gave 5x speed boost. And they are changing it now coz it turned out all of that was bogus, the speed boost wasn't as high for loading of data itself, and good part of the loading of the level wasn't even waiting for disk, but terrain generation.
- hinkley 11mo ago
  5x space is going to be hard to beat, but one should always be careful about hiding behind a tall tent pole like this. IO isn’t free, it’s cheap. So if they could generate terrain with no data loading it would likely be a little faster. But someone might find a way to speed up generation and then think it’s pointless/not get the credit they deserve because then loading is the tall tent pole. I’ve worked with far too many people who have done the equivalent in non game software and it leads to unhappy customers and salespeople. I’ve come to think of it as a kind of learned helplessness.
ErroneousBosh 11mo ago
> The problem they fixed is that they removed a common optimization to get 5x faster loading speeds on HDDs. Maybe, kinda, sorta, on some games, on some spinning rust hard disks, if you held your hand just right and the Moon was real close to the cusp. If you're still using spinning rust in a PC that you attempt to run modern software on, please drop me a message. I'll send you a tenner so you can buy yourself an SSD.
- expedition32 11mo ago
  The minimum requirement for new games is a SSD true. However a lot of people have TINY SSDs. Think 500 gigabyte.
  - qu4z-2 11mo ago
    So, big enough for a 25GB game but not a 150GB game? I will be amused if we get stats in the coming month that the percentage of users installing the game on a HDD has decreased from 11% to like 3% after they shrunk it.
- mrguyorama 11mo ago
  Fun story: I've loaded modern games off spinning rust for almost all of the past decade, including such whoppers as Siege, FS2020, CoD, and tons of poorly made indie titles. My "fast data" SSD drive that I splurged on remains mostly empty. I am not the one who loads last in the multiplayer lobbies. The entire current insistence about "HDD is slow to load" is just cargo cult bullshit. The Mass Effect remastered collection loads off of a microSD card faster than the animation takes to get into the elevator. Loading is slow because games have to take all that data streaming in off the disk and do things with it. They have to parse data structures, build up objects in memory, make decisions, pass data off to the GPU etc etc. A staggering amount of games load no faster off a RAM disk. For instance, Fallout 4 loading is hard locked to the frame rate. The only way to load faster is to turn off the frame limiter, but that breaks physics, so someone made a mod to turn it off only while loading. SSD vs HDD makes zero difference otherwise. We live in a world where even shaders take a second worth of processing before you can use them, and they are like hundreds of bytes. Disk performance is not the bottleneck. Some games will demonstrate some small amount of speedup if you move them to SSD. Plenty wont. More people should really experiment with this, it's a couple clicks in steam to move a game. If bundling together assets to reduce how much file system and drive seek work you have to do multiplies your install size by 5x, your asset management is terrible. Even the original playstation, with a seek time of 300ish ms and a slow as hell drive and more CD space than anyone really wanted didn't duplicate data that much, and you could rarely afford any in game loading. I wish they gave any details. How the hell are you bundling things to get that level of data duplication? Were they bundling literally everything else into single bundles for every map? Did every single map file also include all the assets for all weapons and skins and all animations of characters and all enemy types? That would explain how it grew so much over time, as each weapon you added would actually take sizeOfWeaponNumMaps space, but that's stupid as fuck. Seeking an extra file takes a max of one frame* longer than just loading the same amount of data as one file. Every now and then Arrowhead says something that implies they are just utterly clueless. They have such a good handle of how games can be fun though. At least when they aren't maliciously bullying their players.
zoeysmithe 11mo ago
I think we should remember the context here. They're using the outdated stingray engine and this engine is designed for the days of single or dual core computers with spinning disks. They developed their game with this target in mind. Mind you, spinning disks are not only a lot more rare today but also much faster than when Stingray 1.0 was released. Something like 3-4x faster. The game was never a loading hog and I imagine by the time they launched and realized how big this install would be, the technical debt was too much. The monetary cost of labor hours to undo this must have been significant, so they took the financial decision of "We'll keep getting away with it until we can't." The community finally got fed up. The steamdb chart keeps inching lower and lower and I think they finally got worried about permanently losing players that they conceded and did this hoping to get those players back and to avoid a further exodus. And lets say this game is now much worse on spinning disk. At the end of the day AH will choose profit. If they lose that 10% spinning disk people who wont tolerate the few seconds change, the game will please the other players, thus making sure its lives on. Lastly, this is how its delivered on console, many of which use spinning media. So its hard to see this as problematic. I'm guessing for console MS and Sony said no to a 150gb install so AG was invested in keeping it small. They were forced to redo the game for console without this extra data. The time and money there was worth it for them. For PC, there's no one to say no, so they did the cheapest thing they could until they no longer could. This is one of the downsides of open platforms. There's no 'parent' to yell at you, so you do what you want. Its the classic walled garden vs open bazaar type thing.
buellerbueller 11mo ago
If 5x faster refers to a difference of "a few seconds" as the article says, then perhaps 5x (relative improvement) is the wrong optimization metric versus "a few seconds" (absolute improvement).
creatonez 11mo ago
Eh? Hard drives for gaming and high-end workstations are thoroughly obsolete. SSDs are not optional when playing any triple-A game. It's kinda wild to see people still complaining about this.

nearbuy 11mo ago

According to the post, "the change in the file size will result in minimal changes to load times - seconds at most." It didn't help their game load noticeably faster. They just hadn't checked if the optimization actually helped.

jeroenhd 11mo ago
The actual source (https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/491583942944621371 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/49158394...) says: > Only a few seconds difference? > Further good news: the change in the file size will result in minimal changes to load times - seconds at most. “Wait a minute,” I hear you ask - “didn’t you just tell us all that you duplicate data because the loading times on HDDs could be 10 times worse?”. I am pleased to say that our worst case projections did not come to pass. These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns. > Now things are different. We have real measurements specific to our game instead of industry data. We now know that the true number of players actively playing HD2 on a mechanical HDD was around 11% during the last week (seems our estimates were not so bad after all). We now know that, contrary to most games, the majority of the loading time in HELLDIVERS 2 is due to level-generation rather than asset loading. This level generation happens in parallel with loading assets from the disk and so is the main determining factor of the loading time. We now know that this is true even for users with mechanical HDDs. They measured first, accepted the minimal impact, and then changed their game.
- the_af 11mo ago
  But this means that before they blindly trusted some stats without actually testing how their game performed with and without it?
  - radlad 11mo ago
    Yes, but I think maybe people in this thread are painting it unfairly? Another way to frame it is that they used industry best practices and their intuition to develop the game, then revisited their decisions to see if they still made sense. When they didn't, they updated the game. It's normal for any product to be imperfect on initial release. It's part of actually getting to market.
    - the_af 11mo ago
      To be clear, I don't think it's a huge sin. It's the kind of mistake all of us make from time to time. And it got corrected, so all's well that ends well.
  - JohnBooty 11mo ago
    FWIW, the PC install size was reasonable at launch. It just crept up slowly over time. But this means that before they blindly trusted some stats without actually testing how their game performed with and without it? Maybe they didn't test it with their game because their game didn't exist yet, because this was a decision made fairly early in the development process. In hindsight, yeah... it was the wrong call. I'm just a little baffled by people harping on this decision and deciding that the developers must be stupid or lazy. I mean, seriously, I do not understand. Like what do you get out of that? That would make you happy or satisfied somehow?
    - the_af 11mo ago
      Go figure: people are downvoting me but I never once said developers must be stupid or lazy. This is a very common kind of mistake developers often make: premature optimization without considering the actual bottlenecks, and without testing theoretical optimizations actually make any difference. I know I'm guilty of this! I never called anyone lazy or stupid, I just wondered whether they blindly trusted some stats without actually testing them. > FWIW, the PC install size was reasonable at launch. It just crept up slowly over time Wouldn't this mean their optimization mattered even less back then?

afavour 11mo ago

> If someone "takes pride in their work" and makes my game load five times longer, I'd rather they go find something else to take pride in. And others who wish one single game didn't waste 130GB of their disk space, it's fine to ignore their opinions? They used up a ton more disk space to apply an ill-advised optimization that didn't have much effect. I don't really understand why you'd consider that a positive thing.

jeroenhd 11mo ago
By their own industry data (https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/491583942944621371 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/49158394...), deduplication causes a 5x performance increase loading data from HDD. There's a reason so many games are huge, and it's not because they're mining your HDD for HDDCoin. The "problem" is a feature. The "so it remains unfixed until someone with pride in their work finally carves out the time to do it" mindset suggests that they were simply too lazy to ever run fdupes over their install directory, which is simply not the case. The duplication was intentional, and is still intentional in many other games that could but likely won't apply the same data minimization. I'll gladly take this update because considerable effort was spent on measuring the impact, but not one of those "everyone around me is so lazy, I'll just be the noble hero to sacrifice my time to deduplicate the game files" updates.
- JohnBooty 11mo ago
  I expect better from HN, where most of us are engineers or engineer-adjacent. It's fair to question Arrowhead's priorities but... too lazy Really? I think the PC install size probably should have been addressed sooner too, but... which do you think is more likely? Arrowhead is a whole company full of "lazy" developers who just don't like to work very hard? Or do you think they had their hands full with other optimizations, bug fixes, and a large amount of new content while running a complex multiplatform live service game for millions of players? (Also consider that management was probably deciding priorities there and not the developers) I put hundreds of hours into HD2 and had a tremendous amount of fun. It's not the product of "lazy" people...

account42 11mo ago

23 GiB can be cached entirely in RAM on higher end gaming rigs these days. 154 GiB probably does not fit into many player's RAM when you still want something left for the OS and game. Reducing how much needs to be loaded from slow storage is itself an I/O speedup and HDDs are not that bad at seeking that you need to go to extreme lengths to avoid it entirely. The only place where such duplication to ensure linear reads may be warranted is optical media.

jeroenhd 11mo ago
They used "industry data" to make performance estimations: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/491583942944621371 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/553850/view/49158394... > These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not.
- PunchyHamster 11mo ago
  Instead of y'know, running their own game on a hdd. It's literally "instead of profiling our own app we profiled competition's app and made decisions based on that".
  - ffsm8 11mo ago
    They started off with the competitors data, and then moved on once they had their own data though? Not sure what y'all complaining about. They made an effort to improve the product, but because everything in tech comes with side effects it turned out to be a bad decision which they rolled back. Sounds like highly professional behavior to me by people doing their best. Not everything will always work out, 100% of the time. And this might finally reverse the trend of games being >100gb as other teams will be able to point to this decision why they shouldn't implement this particular optimization prematurely
    - 11mo ago

jjmarr 11mo ago

If this is a common issue in industry why don't game devs make a user visible slider to control dedup? I have friends who play one or two games and want them to load fast. Others have dozens and want storage space.

ThrowawayR2 11mo ago
Any developer could tell you that it's because that would be extra code, extra UI, extra localization, extra QA, etc. for something nonessential that could be ignored in favor of adding something that increases the chance of the game managing to break even.
- jjmarr 11mo ago
  Having a smaller install size makes me more likely to buy the game if I have a large library. Game size is a problem in every new triple A release.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]

PunchyHamster 11mo ago

> The problem they fixed is that they removed a common optimization to get 5x faster loading speeds on HDDs. Not what happened. They removed an optimization that in *some other games* ,that are not their game, gave 5x speed boost. And they are changing it now coz it turned out all of that was bogus, the speed boost wasn't as high for loading of data itself, and good part of the loading of the level wasn't even waiting for disk, but terrain generation.

hinkley 11mo ago
5x space is going to be hard to beat, but one should always be careful about hiding behind a tall tent pole like this. IO isn’t free, it’s cheap. So if they could generate terrain with no data loading it would likely be a little faster. But someone might find a way to speed up generation and then think it’s pointless/not get the credit they deserve because then loading is the tall tent pole. I’ve worked with far too many people who have done the equivalent in non game software and it leads to unhappy customers and salespeople. I’ve come to think of it as a kind of learned helplessness.

ErroneousBosh 11mo ago

> The problem they fixed is that they removed a common optimization to get 5x faster loading speeds on HDDs. Maybe, kinda, sorta, on some games, on some spinning rust hard disks, if you held your hand just right and the Moon was real close to the cusp. If you're still using spinning rust in a PC that you attempt to run modern software on, please drop me a message. I'll send you a tenner so you can buy yourself an SSD.

expedition32 11mo ago
The minimum requirement for new games is a SSD true. However a lot of people have TINY SSDs. Think 500 gigabyte.
- qu4z-2 11mo ago
  So, big enough for a 25GB game but not a 150GB game? I will be amused if we get stats in the coming month that the percentage of users installing the game on a HDD has decreased from 11% to like 3% after they shrunk it.
mrguyorama 11mo ago
Fun story: I've loaded modern games off spinning rust for almost all of the past decade, including such whoppers as Siege, FS2020, CoD, and tons of poorly made indie titles. My "fast data" SSD drive that I splurged on remains mostly empty. I am not the one who loads last in the multiplayer lobbies. The entire current insistence about "HDD is slow to load" is just cargo cult bullshit. The Mass Effect remastered collection loads off of a microSD card faster than the animation takes to get into the elevator. Loading is slow because games have to take all that data streaming in off the disk and do things with it. They have to parse data structures, build up objects in memory, make decisions, pass data off to the GPU etc etc. A staggering amount of games load no faster off a RAM disk. For instance, Fallout 4 loading is hard locked to the frame rate. The only way to load faster is to turn off the frame limiter, but that breaks physics, so someone made a mod to turn it off only while loading. SSD vs HDD makes zero difference otherwise. We live in a world where even shaders take a second worth of processing before you can use them, and they are like hundreds of bytes. Disk performance is not the bottleneck. Some games will demonstrate some small amount of speedup if you move them to SSD. Plenty wont. More people should really experiment with this, it's a couple clicks in steam to move a game. If bundling together assets to reduce how much file system and drive seek work you have to do multiplies your install size by 5x, your asset management is terrible. Even the original playstation, with a seek time of 300ish ms and a slow as hell drive and more CD space than anyone really wanted didn't duplicate data that much, and you could rarely afford any in game loading. I wish they gave any details. How the hell are you bundling things to get that level of data duplication? Were they bundling literally everything else into single bundles for every map? Did every single map file also include all the assets for all weapons and skins and all animations of characters and all enemy types? That would explain how it grew so much over time, as each weapon you added would actually take sizeOfWeaponNumMaps space, but that's stupid as fuck. Seeking an extra file takes a max of one frame* longer than just loading the same amount of data as one file. Every now and then Arrowhead says something that implies they are just utterly clueless. They have such a good handle of how games can be fun though. At least when they aren't maliciously bullying their players.

zoeysmithe 11mo ago

I think we should remember the context here. They're using the outdated stingray engine and this engine is designed for the days of single or dual core computers with spinning disks. They developed their game with this target in mind. Mind you, spinning disks are not only a lot more rare today but also much faster than when Stingray 1.0 was released. Something like 3-4x faster. The game was never a loading hog and I imagine by the time they launched and realized how big this install would be, the technical debt was too much. The monetary cost of labor hours to undo this must have been significant, so they took the financial decision of "We'll keep getting away with it until we can't." The community finally got fed up. The steamdb chart keeps inching lower and lower and I think they finally got worried about permanently losing players that they conceded and did this hoping to get those players back and to avoid a further exodus. And lets say this game is now much worse on spinning disk. At the end of the day AH will choose profit. If they lose that 10% spinning disk people who wont tolerate the few seconds change, the game will please the other players, thus making sure its lives on. Lastly, this is how its delivered on console, many of which use spinning media. So its hard to see this as problematic. I'm guessing for console MS and Sony said no to a 150gb install so AG was invested in keeping it small. They were forced to redo the game for console without this extra data. The time and money there was worth it for them. For PC, there's no one to say no, so they did the cheapest thing they could until they no longer could. This is one of the downsides of open platforms. There's no 'parent' to yell at you, so you do what you want. Its the classic walled garden vs open bazaar type thing.

buellerbueller 11mo ago

If 5x faster refers to a difference of "a few seconds" as the article says, then perhaps 5x (relative improvement) is the wrong optimization metric versus "a few seconds" (absolute improvement).

creatonez 11mo ago

Eh? Hard drives for gaming and high-end workstations are thoroughly obsolete. SSDs are not optional when playing any triple-A game. It's kinda wild to see people still complaining about this.