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Yeah, speak for yourself. I'd love to work at a place where I can't be fired because my manager had a bad day and I didn't move the right Jira tickets around to

Yeah, speak for yourself. I'd love to work at a place where I can't be fired because my manager had a bad day and I didn't move the right Jira tickets around to his satisfaction, where I'm treated like a human being in stead of fungible cattle. I also don't want to go back into an office. Ever. But if people actually want to affect change at their workplace, instead of just kvetching, that's basically the only way to do it, short of praying to Money Jesus for another ZIRP boom like the 2010s (I'm not a praying man, but I wouldn't hold my breath). I'm just saying, if workers want control over their working conditions, they have to recognize the power they have. It's up to them if they decide to wield it. You don't have to, and that's fine! Enjoy your long Bay Area commute.

VirusNewbie 11mo ago
There are companies in the US that have engineering unions. Boeing is one. You're going to tell me you'd rather work at Boeing over Apple or Google?
- filleduchaos 11mo ago
  ...yes? Is that supposed to be a hard question? No, seriously, literally what does Apple or Google have over Boeing as a company to work at? Compensation? If money is all that matters to you, then there are several Web3/AI/etc startups offering absurd cash comp that you can go and throw yourself at.
  - VirusNewbie 11mo ago
    literally what does Apple or Google have over Boeing as a company to work at Smarter coworkers. Better engineering culture. Better benefits. More time off. Bosses with engineering chops. More flexible schedules. Less likely to get laid off. Perks like free food/massages/events. Equity so as the company grows your pay increases automatically. Large bonuses. Are you actually serious you'd rather work at Boeing?
    - filleduchaos 11mo ago
      > Smarter coworkers. Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days. > Better engineering culture. Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days. > Bosses with engineering chops. Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days. The rest of your list is just "money" written over and over and as I've already said, if that's all you care about, that's your prerogative but let's not pretend that makes somewhere a "good place to work".
      - OGEnthusiast 11mo ago
        Not sure how it is in Nigeria, but in America people think much more highly of Apple products than recent Boeing planes. So by the logic of "Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days.", Boeing does much worse on that metric than Apple.
        filleduchaos 11mo ago
        Not sure what countries are supposed to have to do with anything but if that's where we're taking it, America is full of people who think all sorts of nonsense that is barely rooted in reality. I don't really see how the opinion of a public that revels in ignorance and is easily led by the nose (and I'm aware that this applies on both sides of the Atlantic) is supposed to be relevant to an engineering discussion. I guess at least you didn't bother trying to argue that Google is a bastion of high quality products
      - VirusNewbie 11mo ago
        So wait, your argument is that you actually think Boeing has a better engineering culture and smarter coworkers, than cream of the crop prestigious and high paying software companies. You're just that certain that the vast majority of engineers don't care about money, and aren't competing to get in there? And instead work at Boeing. Where you think the engineering culture is better...even though their software has a reputation of being awful. You must know a lot more than everyone here. You should really enligthen us. All those terrible products that all those people are using from Apple and Google.
- duskdozer 11mo ago
  Looks like you don't have to choose between Boeing and Google! https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/25/22243138/google-union-alphabet-workers-europe-announce-global-alliance https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/25/22243138/google-union-alp... Though yes, I'm not sure if that union still exists now. The point is that you do not have to prefer working at every company that has a union over every company that does not have a union. It's enough to prefer having a union over not having a union at any company you do work for.

VirusNewbie 11mo ago

There are companies in the US that have engineering unions. Boeing is one. You're going to tell me you'd rather work at Boeing over Apple or Google?

filleduchaos 11mo ago
...yes? Is that supposed to be a hard question? No, seriously, literally what does Apple or Google have over Boeing as a company to work at? Compensation? If money is all that matters to you, then there are several Web3/AI/etc startups offering absurd cash comp that you can go and throw yourself at.
- VirusNewbie 11mo ago
  literally what does Apple or Google have over Boeing as a company to work at Smarter coworkers. Better engineering culture. Better benefits. More time off. Bosses with engineering chops. More flexible schedules. Less likely to get laid off. Perks like free food/massages/events. Equity so as the company grows your pay increases automatically. Large bonuses. Are you actually serious you'd rather work at Boeing?
  - filleduchaos 11mo ago
    > Smarter coworkers. Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days. > Better engineering culture. Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days. > Bosses with engineering chops. Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days. The rest of your list is just "money" written over and over and as I've already said, if that's all you care about, that's your prerogative but let's not pretend that makes somewhere a "good place to work".
    - OGEnthusiast 11mo ago
      Not sure how it is in Nigeria, but in America people think much more highly of Apple products than recent Boeing planes. So by the logic of "Doubtful, we can see the products that come out of them these days.", Boeing does much worse on that metric than Apple.
      - filleduchaos 11mo ago
        Not sure what countries are supposed to have to do with anything but if that's where we're taking it, America is full of people who think all sorts of nonsense that is barely rooted in reality. I don't really see how the opinion of a public that revels in ignorance and is easily led by the nose (and I'm aware that this applies on both sides of the Atlantic) is supposed to be relevant to an engineering discussion. I guess at least you didn't bother trying to argue that Google is a bastion of high quality products
    - VirusNewbie 11mo ago
      So wait, your argument is that you actually think Boeing has a better engineering culture and smarter coworkers, than cream of the crop prestigious and high paying software companies. You're just that certain that the vast majority of engineers don't care about money, and aren't competing to get in there? And instead work at Boeing. Where you think the engineering culture is better...even though their software has a reputation of being awful. You must know a lot more than everyone here. You should really enligthen us. All those terrible products that all those people are using from Apple and Google.
duskdozer 11mo ago
Looks like you don't have to choose between Boeing and Google! https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/25/22243138/google-union-alphabet-workers-europe-announce-global-alliance https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/25/22243138/google-union-alp... Though yes, I'm not sure if that union still exists now. The point is that you do not have to prefer working at every company that has a union over every company that does not have a union. It's enough to prefer having a union over not having a union at any company you do work for.