5 ms·

Nearly 2 in 5 Americans are covered by Medicare or Medicaid. TANSTAAFL. The other 3 bear the burden. At some point Atlas shrugs and decides welfare is a better

by snikeris 10mo ago

Nearly 2 in 5 Americans are covered by Medicare or Medicaid. TANSTAAFL. The other 3 bear the burden. At some point Atlas shrugs and decides welfare is a better deal.

denkmoon 10mo ago
In Australia 5 out of 5 people are covered by Medicare, and 5 of them bear the burden. (at some point in their life. assuming they become a tax payer, which seems likely for most.)
- antonymoose 10mo ago
  What percentage of Australian society is net-positive tax payer? That’s your real number, not this pretend 5 out of 5 as you claim.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - sokoloff 10mo ago
    If everyone costs the system $10, and the five people pay $8, $9, $10, $11, and $12, respectively, I think it’s a mistake to say only the last two net-positive taxpayers are paying for the system.
    - denkmoon 10mo ago
      Agreed. It is a small proportion of people who do not contribute to their own healthcare in this way.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- JKCalhoun 10mo ago
  I guess your health industry is not raping you with outrageous costs?
  - defrost 10mo ago
    From the top: Health spending in 2023–24 In 2023–24, Australia spent an estimated $270.5 billion on health goods and services– an average of approximately $10,037 per person. In real terms (adjusted for inflation), health spending increased by 1.1%, or $2.8 billion more than spending from 2022–23. In 2023–24, health spending accounted for 10.1% of the gross domestic product (GDP) in Australia, approximately 0.2 percentage points higher than in 2022–23. ~ https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/h... From the bottom: In Australia, 15% of all expenditure on health care comes directly from individuals in the form of out‐of‐pocket fees — this is almost double the amount contributed by private health insurers. There is concern that vulnerable groups — socio‐economically disadvantaged people and older Australians in particular, who also have higher health care needs — are spending larger proportions of their incomes on out‐of‐pocket fees for health care. A 2019 study identified that one in three low income households are spending more than 10% of their income on health care. ~ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10953298/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10953298/ There's little to no public advertising of prescription drugs, cheap generics are widely available from federal scale bulk negotiation deals. Health outcomes are greater life expectancy than the US, national scale cancer survuival rates are better by a few percentage points (IIRC - they are close but higher). Australia has long had an innate "we're all in this together" society built on individualism. It's not great, it's not perfect, but the first instinct is generally to look after our own - across the board.
  - abigail95 10mo ago
    When I was in the USA just paying for things like a GP and a single specialist didn't seem outrageous coming from Australia. If I worked in the US, I would have health insurance and would be paying lower out of pocket costs than I would in Australia. Combined with the higher salary and cheaper housing that's a pretty good deal. Edit: We allegedly have universal healthcare but that doesn't cover any actually competent specialist (need private healthcare for this) so paying $400 for 25 minutes of a psychiatrist every 2 months and $95 for 7 minutes of a GP is common.
- sien 10mo ago
  On top of that, 53% pay for Private Health Care as well. https://www.health.gov.au/topics/private-health-insurance/reforms?language=en https://www.health.gov.au/topics/private-health-insurance/re... On top of that many things that are 'not urgent' you have to pay for yourself. I have recently paid over 20K for back surgery. Prior to the back surgery I could barely walk. This was deemed 'not urgent' and had I would have had to have waited at least 18 months for surgery via Medicare. I also have private health cover. So, it's important for non-Australians to understand, our health system is far from a panacea where taxes pay for everything. Currently 778 K Australians are waiting for 'elective surgery' . https://www.aihw.gov.au/hospitals/topics/elective-surgery https://www.aihw.gov.au/hospitals/topics/elective-surgery
- AstroBen 10mo ago
  The burden of this isn't a big one to bear. I just compared tax rates for a $65k USD income in Australia vs the US. You'd be taxed ~$800 less in Australia.
  - abigail95 10mo ago
    There's no way that's true - include the employer side payroll taxes. Whether PPP or nominal my napkin math gives me 40% more tax payable in Australia Edit: I'm too dumb to know whether to include superannuation as a tax or not so I'm not sure if I'm right or not.
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
    - jeeeb 10mo ago
      Superannuation is not a tax. It’s a compulsory retirement saving/investment scheme. However to calculate total income taxes you do need to include the 15% tax on superannuation contributions. If your pre-tax take home salary is $100k AUD, then your total salary package is 111.5k including the 11.5% compulsory employer superannuation contribution. You’ll pay regular income taxes + 2% Medicare levy on $100k and your $11.5k super contribution will be taxed at 15%. So your total income tax including the Medicare levy (but assuming you don’t pay the Medicare surcharge or claim any deductions) will be $24,513. Giving an effective tax rate of 20.2% There are no state or local income taxes in Australia so that’s it for personal income taxes. However states do charge payroll tax on most companies payroll (e.g. 4.85% on annual payroll over $1M in the state of Victoria for companies in the Melbourne metro area).
  - etchalon 10mo ago
    Pointing out the myth of "socialism just means higher taxes and less freedom" will only draw the pitchforks to your door.
- prawn 10mo ago
  More info on Australia from a quick search. - Public hospital birth is about $0-1k USD. - Private hospital with health insurance: $2-3k USD - Private without insurance: typically up to $13k USD Private health insurance is nowhere near $40k here. Can be down around US$100/mo for a single or US$300ish/mo for a family, depending on inclusions.
o11c 10mo ago
The amount of money the US Government pays just for that 40% should be enough to cover all 100%. We know this is possible because it happens in other countries, which have shorter waits and more coverage since that talking point keeps being brought up despite collapsing in the face of reality.
- peter422 10mo ago
  The quality of health care in the US is significantly higher than anywhere else in the world. Whether that quality is necessarily (or good) is debatable, but we are getting something for the money. You also are just completely wrong in your main point. We cannot provide the same efficacy of healthcare as we are now for 60% less. We are the richest country in the world, labor costs more here than other places.
  - AstroBen 10mo ago
    > The quality of health care in the US is significantly higher than anywhere else in the world. Do you have any evidence of that?
    - peter422 10mo ago
      15 out of the top 50 and 4/6 top hospitals in the world are in the US: https://rankings.newsweek.com/worlds-best-hospitals-2025 https://rankings.newsweek.com/worlds-best-hospitals-2025 Again, I’m not saying the health care outcomes are better, or the value is better. I’m saying the hospitals are nicer, the doctors are the best, etc. Perhaps this is the wrong thing to optimize for! But we are getting something.
      - BeetleB 10mo ago
        > 15 out of the top 50 and 4/6 top hospitals in the world are in the US Outliers do not say much about the overall quality of healthcare in a country. Rather obvious lesson in statistics. Reminds me of the Russian mathematician who moved to the US after the fall of the Soviet Union. Most of his essays were criticizing American students, but in one essay he was quite frank: Russians who graduate with math degrees are better than Americans who do so, by a wide margin. However, the average American is better at math because they still get access to some math education in university and do not need to be a top student for admission. Whereas in Russia, if you didn't meet a rather high bar, you simply couldn't get admitted as an engineering/physics/math program, and thus couldn't further your math education (I believe he said the cutoff was even before university). Country with the top mathematicians, but country with worse math outcomes.
gdulli 10mo ago
Fortunately, a good number of people in the 3 of 5 population have the imagination to see that they or people they love will someday be in the 2 of 5 population.
vkou 10mo ago
Weird, I've seen a lot more people bitch about welfare and how easy people on the dole have it, than actually give up their nice jobs and lifestyles to go try living it.
- matmo 10mo ago
  I don't think the critique is that "welfare is objectively preferable" to a high paying career, but rather that the effort:reward ratio isn't scalable to society at large (without some level of social cohesion, I guess).
- tialaramex 10mo ago
  It was likewise striking how few of America's slave owners thought that slavery was such a sweet deal that they should be enslaved. It's not always true, but it should always give you pause if you find yourself insisting that other people have it too good and yet you've been careful to ensure that you'd never have to trade places...

Nearly 2 in 5 Americans are covered by Medicare or Medicaid. TANSTAAFL. The other 3 bear the burden. At some point Atlas shrugs and decides welfare is a better deal.

denkmoon 10mo ago

In Australia 5 out of 5 people are covered by Medicare, and 5 of them bear the burden. (at some point in their life. assuming they become a tax payer, which seems likely for most.)

antonymoose 10mo ago
What percentage of Australian society is net-positive tax payer? That’s your real number, not this pretend 5 out of 5 as you claim.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 10mo ago
  If everyone costs the system $10, and the five people pay $8, $9, $10, $11, and $12, respectively, I think it’s a mistake to say only the last two net-positive taxpayers are paying for the system.
  - denkmoon 10mo ago
    Agreed. It is a small proportion of people who do not contribute to their own healthcare in this way.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
JKCalhoun 10mo ago
I guess your health industry is not raping you with outrageous costs?
- defrost 10mo ago
  From the top: Health spending in 2023–24 In 2023–24, Australia spent an estimated $270.5 billion on health goods and services– an average of approximately $10,037 per person. In real terms (adjusted for inflation), health spending increased by 1.1%, or $2.8 billion more than spending from 2022–23. In 2023–24, health spending accounted for 10.1% of the gross domestic product (GDP) in Australia, approximately 0.2 percentage points higher than in 2022–23. ~ https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/h... From the bottom: In Australia, 15% of all expenditure on health care comes directly from individuals in the form of out‐of‐pocket fees — this is almost double the amount contributed by private health insurers. There is concern that vulnerable groups — socio‐economically disadvantaged people and older Australians in particular, who also have higher health care needs — are spending larger proportions of their incomes on out‐of‐pocket fees for health care. A 2019 study identified that one in three low income households are spending more than 10% of their income on health care. ~ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10953298/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10953298/ There's little to no public advertising of prescription drugs, cheap generics are widely available from federal scale bulk negotiation deals. Health outcomes are greater life expectancy than the US, national scale cancer survuival rates are better by a few percentage points (IIRC - they are close but higher). Australia has long had an innate "we're all in this together" society built on individualism. It's not great, it's not perfect, but the first instinct is generally to look after our own - across the board.
- abigail95 10mo ago
  When I was in the USA just paying for things like a GP and a single specialist didn't seem outrageous coming from Australia. If I worked in the US, I would have health insurance and would be paying lower out of pocket costs than I would in Australia. Combined with the higher salary and cheaper housing that's a pretty good deal. Edit: We allegedly have universal healthcare but that doesn't cover any actually competent specialist (need private healthcare for this) so paying $400 for 25 minutes of a psychiatrist every 2 months and $95 for 7 minutes of a GP is common.
sien 10mo ago
On top of that, 53% pay for Private Health Care as well. https://www.health.gov.au/topics/private-health-insurance/reforms?language=en https://www.health.gov.au/topics/private-health-insurance/re... On top of that many things that are 'not urgent' you have to pay for yourself. I have recently paid over 20K for back surgery. Prior to the back surgery I could barely walk. This was deemed 'not urgent' and had I would have had to have waited at least 18 months for surgery via Medicare. I also have private health cover. So, it's important for non-Australians to understand, our health system is far from a panacea where taxes pay for everything. Currently 778 K Australians are waiting for 'elective surgery' . https://www.aihw.gov.au/hospitals/topics/elective-surgery https://www.aihw.gov.au/hospitals/topics/elective-surgery
AstroBen 10mo ago
The burden of this isn't a big one to bear. I just compared tax rates for a $65k USD income in Australia vs the US. You'd be taxed ~$800 less in Australia.
- abigail95 10mo ago
  There's no way that's true - include the employer side payroll taxes. Whether PPP or nominal my napkin math gives me 40% more tax payable in Australia Edit: I'm too dumb to know whether to include superannuation as a tax or not so I'm not sure if I'm right or not.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - jeeeb 10mo ago
    Superannuation is not a tax. It’s a compulsory retirement saving/investment scheme. However to calculate total income taxes you do need to include the 15% tax on superannuation contributions. If your pre-tax take home salary is $100k AUD, then your total salary package is 111.5k including the 11.5% compulsory employer superannuation contribution. You’ll pay regular income taxes + 2% Medicare levy on $100k and your $11.5k super contribution will be taxed at 15%. So your total income tax including the Medicare levy (but assuming you don’t pay the Medicare surcharge or claim any deductions) will be $24,513. Giving an effective tax rate of 20.2% There are no state or local income taxes in Australia so that’s it for personal income taxes. However states do charge payroll tax on most companies payroll (e.g. 4.85% on annual payroll over $1M in the state of Victoria for companies in the Melbourne metro area).
- etchalon 10mo ago
  Pointing out the myth of "socialism just means higher taxes and less freedom" will only draw the pitchforks to your door.
prawn 10mo ago
More info on Australia from a quick search. - Public hospital birth is about $0-1k USD. - Private hospital with health insurance: $2-3k USD - Private without insurance: typically up to $13k USD Private health insurance is nowhere near $40k here. Can be down around US$100/mo for a single or US$300ish/mo for a family, depending on inclusions.

o11c 10mo ago

The amount of money the US Government pays just for that 40% should be enough to cover all 100%. We know this is possible because it happens in other countries, which have shorter waits and more coverage since that talking point keeps being brought up despite collapsing in the face of reality.

peter422 10mo ago
The quality of health care in the US is significantly higher than anywhere else in the world. Whether that quality is necessarily (or good) is debatable, but we are getting something for the money. You also are just completely wrong in your main point. We cannot provide the same efficacy of healthcare as we are now for 60% less. We are the richest country in the world, labor costs more here than other places.
- AstroBen 10mo ago
  > The quality of health care in the US is significantly higher than anywhere else in the world. Do you have any evidence of that?
  - peter422 10mo ago
    15 out of the top 50 and 4/6 top hospitals in the world are in the US: https://rankings.newsweek.com/worlds-best-hospitals-2025 https://rankings.newsweek.com/worlds-best-hospitals-2025 Again, I’m not saying the health care outcomes are better, or the value is better. I’m saying the hospitals are nicer, the doctors are the best, etc. Perhaps this is the wrong thing to optimize for! But we are getting something.
    - BeetleB 10mo ago
      > 15 out of the top 50 and 4/6 top hospitals in the world are in the US Outliers do not say much about the overall quality of healthcare in a country. Rather obvious lesson in statistics. Reminds me of the Russian mathematician who moved to the US after the fall of the Soviet Union. Most of his essays were criticizing American students, but in one essay he was quite frank: Russians who graduate with math degrees are better than Americans who do so, by a wide margin. However, the average American is better at math because they still get access to some math education in university and do not need to be a top student for admission. Whereas in Russia, if you didn't meet a rather high bar, you simply couldn't get admitted as an engineering/physics/math program, and thus couldn't further your math education (I believe he said the cutoff was even before university). Country with the top mathematicians, but country with worse math outcomes.

gdulli 10mo ago

Fortunately, a good number of people in the 3 of 5 population have the imagination to see that they or people they love will someday be in the 2 of 5 population.

vkou 10mo ago

Weird, I've seen a lot more people bitch about welfare and how easy people on the dole have it, than actually give up their nice jobs and lifestyles to go try living it.

matmo 10mo ago
I don't think the critique is that "welfare is objectively preferable" to a high paying career, but rather that the effort:reward ratio isn't scalable to society at large (without some level of social cohesion, I guess).
tialaramex 10mo ago
It was likewise striking how few of America's slave owners thought that slavery was such a sweet deal that they should be enslaved. It's not always true, but it should always give you pause if you find yourself insisting that other people have it too good and yet you've been careful to ensure that you'd never have to trade places...