5 ms·

Something I don't understand. What's the point of obfuscation if ultimately you can be caught when you try to convert it to fiat? If I have Btc and I convert it

by chistev 11mo ago

Something I don't understand. What's the point of obfuscation if ultimately you can be caught when you try to convert it to fiat? If I have Btc and I convert it to monero to prevent tracking, how do I get it back to money in my bank account without being traceable?

m00dy 11mo ago
Well, what you're asking about is basically a business. Most folks make bank just by setting up that kind of circle. I'd suggest reading up on front businesses like luxury restaurants that sit empty most of the time. it's such a classic play, everyone knows it. If you've got BTC and want to get it back into your bank account, hit me up anytime.
- dewey 11mo ago
  > If you've got BTC and want to get it back into your bank account, hit me up anytime. That's exactly how people get caught.
  - ta12653421 11mo ago
    Well, public offering on the internet, Money laundering as a service :-D
danlugo92 11mo ago
Bitcoin's traceability ruins its fungibility.
- Anon84 11mo ago
  What makes you think Monero is untraceable? - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2408.05332 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2408.05332 - https://darkwebinformer.com/chainalysis-successful-deanonymization-attack-on-monero-2/ https://darkwebinformer.com/chainalysis-successful-deanonymi... -https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666281725001283 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266628172...
  - hypeatei 11mo ago
    The fact that it's delisted from most exchanges because of its privacy features; if it was as traceable as Bitcoin, then the feds would allow it. What I see from these links is that it's not fully "traceable" and more educated guessing via heuristics.
    - littlecranky67 11mo ago
      Lightning (A layer-2 network based on Bitcoin) is similarly untraceable as Monero, without being an actual cryptocurrency. Yet the fed doesn't seem to concerned, probably also because few people and institutions understand Lightning, and the fed is not one of them or doesn't want to go against Bitcoin.
      - nunobrito 11mo ago
        It is nowhere near the privacy offered by Monero: https://raphtyosaze.medium.com/privacy-in-lightning-network-1e2902f0f61f https://raphtyosaze.medium.com/privacy-in-lightning-network-...
        littlecranky67 11mo ago
        Old paper, old link. Most of it is not relevant anymore today. They also do not compare, as Lightning is NOT a cryptocurrency nor does it try to be. It is still Bitcoin.
        nunobrito 11mo ago
        Please kindly provide evidence for your claims and please be factual to point the current privacy concerns still open today and what has been addressed (if at all). Lightning is a token representing bitcoin, same as USDT representing USD. It is NOT bitcoin, never was.
        littlecranky67 11mo ago
- littlecranky67 11mo ago
  The fungibility of Bitcoin is achieved through layer-2 networks, such as Lightning. No, it is not another cryptocurrency, it is just another technological layer. You are still transfering bitcoins. Trumps "Bitcoin payment" portrayed extensively by the media was done in the Lightning network.
- otterley 11mo ago
  Fungibility and traceability are orthogonal. Equities markets transactions are highly traceable and also highly fungible. Bitcoin's fungibility is limited by its incredibly slow transaction speed. (This is true of all cryptocurrencies AFAIK -- even the fastest ones that are only capable of 100K TPS at best.)
  - fruitworks 11mo ago
    Equities markets don't have to deal with "tainted" transactions, because every transaction is like a government-approved deed or title transfer. Bitcoin's transaction rate is artificially limited.
  - otterley 11mo ago
    Correcting myself: I said "fungible" but meant "liquid." Bitcoin is reasonably fungible today, though not as easily as fiat currency. Traceability hasn't done much to reduce Bitcoin's fungibility AFAICT.
matheusmoreira 11mo ago
The idea is to not convert it into fiat. Create a parallel economy where monero is the actual currency, not some intermediary currency. Price things in monero.
- vintermann 11mo ago
  Where would the trust come from? I mean the trust that people really do what they say they're going to do in the real world - like ship you the goods, do the work you paid for, don't immediately kick you out of the servers you paid to access etc. A shadow economy doesn't run itself, who's going to stick their neck out to even try to make it work?
  - ifwinterco 11mo ago
    Where does the trust come from for transacting in dollars, or Spanish pieces of eight? I'm not saying the monero economy is likely but there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't theoretically happen
    - kasey_junk 11mo ago
      Courts, law enforcement and contract law. All of which will take a dim view of using a currency which appears designed wholly to make their function harder.
      - ifwinterco 11mo ago
        A crypto advocate would argue smart contracts can fulfil that role, but also that applies in developed countries but not in the countries where the vast majority of the world population lives. I think if a true crypto economy does emerge anywhere it's likely to be Nigeria, Lebanon etc - places with a significant population of educated entrepreneurial people but where the state is run abysmally and you can't rely on those institutions anyway
        kasey_junk 11mo ago
nunobrito 11mo ago
The point is being like a submarine: nobody really knows where you are moving (transactions) and where you will surface (which other crypto or fiat). On the example you give, large majority of people just pay and accept payments using monero natively. When you are talking about large amount of money, then it is worth a visit to places like El Salvador where you have a bank account with BTC. The conversion tends to take place in exchanges outside 1st world supervision and from El Salvador you can convert BTC to other currencies according to the exchange values or just use it with a credit card. If you want to convert smaller amounts in Europe without tracing, mostly a matter of settling the transactions with small providers albeit you should be prepared to pay a fee between 20% to 30% as commission for the service.
raffael_de 11mo ago
Let me give you a realistic answer. There are soft and hard criminals. For example: soft criminals buy drugs, hard criminals sell drugs. The soft criminals convert from traditional to digital money (plus maybe a little obfuscation), order and hope for the best. The hard criminals have to solve the difficult problem of reversing that conversion. They'll just have some homeless person open a bank account and then use that for the conversion. If the homeless person gets busted, it better keep its mouth shut - or else.

by chistev 11mo ago

m00dy 11mo ago

Well, what you're asking about is basically a business. Most folks make bank just by setting up that kind of circle. I'd suggest reading up on front businesses like luxury restaurants that sit empty most of the time. it's such a classic play, everyone knows it. If you've got BTC and want to get it back into your bank account, hit me up anytime.

dewey 11mo ago
> If you've got BTC and want to get it back into your bank account, hit me up anytime. That's exactly how people get caught.
- ta12653421 11mo ago
  Well, public offering on the internet, Money laundering as a service :-D

danlugo92 11mo ago

Bitcoin's traceability ruins its fungibility.

Anon84 11mo ago
What makes you think Monero is untraceable? - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2408.05332 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2408.05332 - https://darkwebinformer.com/chainalysis-successful-deanonymization-attack-on-monero-2/ https://darkwebinformer.com/chainalysis-successful-deanonymi... -https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666281725001283 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266628172...
- hypeatei 11mo ago
  The fact that it's delisted from most exchanges because of its privacy features; if it was as traceable as Bitcoin, then the feds would allow it. What I see from these links is that it's not fully "traceable" and more educated guessing via heuristics.
  - littlecranky67 11mo ago
    Lightning (A layer-2 network based on Bitcoin) is similarly untraceable as Monero, without being an actual cryptocurrency. Yet the fed doesn't seem to concerned, probably also because few people and institutions understand Lightning, and the fed is not one of them or doesn't want to go against Bitcoin.
    - nunobrito 11mo ago
      It is nowhere near the privacy offered by Monero: https://raphtyosaze.medium.com/privacy-in-lightning-network-1e2902f0f61f https://raphtyosaze.medium.com/privacy-in-lightning-network-...
      - littlecranky67 11mo ago
        Old paper, old link. Most of it is not relevant anymore today. They also do not compare, as Lightning is NOT a cryptocurrency nor does it try to be. It is still Bitcoin.
        nunobrito 11mo ago
        Please kindly provide evidence for your claims and please be factual to point the current privacy concerns still open today and what has been addressed (if at all). Lightning is a token representing bitcoin, same as USDT representing USD. It is NOT bitcoin, never was.
        littlecranky67 11mo ago
littlecranky67 11mo ago
The fungibility of Bitcoin is achieved through layer-2 networks, such as Lightning. No, it is not another cryptocurrency, it is just another technological layer. You are still transfering bitcoins. Trumps "Bitcoin payment" portrayed extensively by the media was done in the Lightning network.
otterley 11mo ago
Fungibility and traceability are orthogonal. Equities markets transactions are highly traceable and also highly fungible. Bitcoin's fungibility is limited by its incredibly slow transaction speed. (This is true of all cryptocurrencies AFAIK -- even the fastest ones that are only capable of 100K TPS at best.)
- fruitworks 11mo ago
  Equities markets don't have to deal with "tainted" transactions, because every transaction is like a government-approved deed or title transfer. Bitcoin's transaction rate is artificially limited.
- otterley 11mo ago
  Correcting myself: I said "fungible" but meant "liquid." Bitcoin is reasonably fungible today, though not as easily as fiat currency. Traceability hasn't done much to reduce Bitcoin's fungibility AFAICT.

matheusmoreira 11mo ago

The idea is to not convert it into fiat. Create a parallel economy where monero is the actual currency, not some intermediary currency. Price things in monero.

vintermann 11mo ago
Where would the trust come from? I mean the trust that people really do what they say they're going to do in the real world - like ship you the goods, do the work you paid for, don't immediately kick you out of the servers you paid to access etc. A shadow economy doesn't run itself, who's going to stick their neck out to even try to make it work?
- ifwinterco 11mo ago
  Where does the trust come from for transacting in dollars, or Spanish pieces of eight? I'm not saying the monero economy is likely but there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't theoretically happen
  - kasey_junk 11mo ago
    Courts, law enforcement and contract law. All of which will take a dim view of using a currency which appears designed wholly to make their function harder.
    - ifwinterco 11mo ago
      A crypto advocate would argue smart contracts can fulfil that role, but also that applies in developed countries but not in the countries where the vast majority of the world population lives. I think if a true crypto economy does emerge anywhere it's likely to be Nigeria, Lebanon etc - places with a significant population of educated entrepreneurial people but where the state is run abysmally and you can't rely on those institutions anyway
      - kasey_junk 11mo ago

nunobrito 11mo ago

The point is being like a submarine: nobody really knows where you are moving (transactions) and where you will surface (which other crypto or fiat). On the example you give, large majority of people just pay and accept payments using monero natively. When you are talking about large amount of money, then it is worth a visit to places like El Salvador where you have a bank account with BTC. The conversion tends to take place in exchanges outside 1st world supervision and from El Salvador you can convert BTC to other currencies according to the exchange values or just use it with a credit card. If you want to convert smaller amounts in Europe without tracing, mostly a matter of settling the transactions with small providers albeit you should be prepared to pay a fee between 20% to 30% as commission for the service.

raffael_de 11mo ago

Let me give you a realistic answer. There are soft and hard criminals. For example: soft criminals buy drugs, hard criminals sell drugs. The soft criminals convert from traditional to digital money (plus maybe a little obfuscation), order and hope for the best. The hard criminals have to solve the difficult problem of reversing that conversion. They'll just have some homeless person open a bank account and then use that for the conversion. If the homeless person gets busted, it better keep its mouth shut - or else.