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> “Hydro-energy exist, but it's fairly built out so stable non-fossil power needs to be nuclear, or wind/sun + storage” Interconnectors also exist (and more ar
by Reason077 11mo ago
> “Hydro-energy exist, but it's fairly built out so stable non-fossil power needs to be nuclear, or wind/sun + storage”
Interconnectors also exist (and more are planned), which means, for example, that Norway can buy wind energy from the UK when it’s cheap and abundant, in preference to using stored energy from their hydro lakes.
That way they effectively get more out of existing hydro lakes, which in Norway is already a very significant storage capacity.
- tordrt 11mo agoTheres not going to be built any more interconnectors from Norway anytime soon. Electricity became a lot more expensive in Norway after building several interconnectors to UK and mainland Europe. Importing high prices from the failed energy politics of UK and Germany which both have among the most expensive electricity in the world. This has been a huge debate, and the general concensus seems to be that joining ACER and building inrerconnectors to mainland Europe was a big mistake.
- parineum 11mo agoThat seems counterintuitive to me. Electricity prices don't go up because you have access to expensive power, it goes up because you don't have enough cheap power so you have to buy the expensive power. It seems like Norway just wouldn't have power if they weren't connected to other sources, not that they'd have more cheap power.
- sgc 11mo agoObviously the presumably large amount of money spent to interconnect could have been spent adding local production and storage. It would be a waste of money if there was a reasonable path to local energy independence that was neglected.
- vidarh 11mo agoA significant proportion of Norway's domestic energy production is hydro, which comes with it's own "built in" storage up to the capacity of the dams, so Norway already has a very significant storage capacity. Estimates suggests a storage capacity of 87TWh of storage in hydro reservoirs, compared to production capacity in recent years between 146 and 157 TWh, and a theoretical production capacity of ~309TWh (I don't know the basis for that - I'd imagine peak production at all the plants, but I doubt that could ever happen in reality, so the 146-157TWh based on real production are better...) Compare that to Norwegian electricity consumption of 124 TWh in 2020. Of course, since so much of Norways total electricity production is hydro, large storage is necessary, as the hydro supply is highly seasonal, based on e.g. things like the amount of melting snow in the mountains in spring.
- jltsiren 11mo agoElectricity prices go up when you have access to customers who are willing to pay more. If grid connections to other regions are limited, people in regions with a lot of cheap generation (such as Norway) pay low prices. But if you add grid connections without increasing generation capacity, prices start equalizing between regions, as every power company tries to sell to the highest bidder. Norway could power itself fully with domestic hydro. But it chose not to, as the power companies make more money by importing foreign power when it's cheap and exporting hydro when it's not.
- seanmcdirmid 11mo agoWashington state has the same problem to a lesser degree. California pays more for cheap Washington hydro, which causes the costs to go up for us, although I guess not as drastic as Norway since our electricity is still considered cheap.
- yxhuvud 11mo agoNorway still have cheap electricity in the grand scheme. It is just more expensive than it used to be.
- DownGoat 11mo ago> "Norway could power itself fully with domestic hydro." We have events where the we cannot get enough load from domestic production. Typically in winter when water freezes.
- fulafel 11mo ago> It seems like Norway just wouldn't have power if they weren't connected to other sources, not that they'd have more cheap power. This is not the case as Norway and neighbouring Sweden have plentiful hydro. It's especially valuable as it can be regulated to complement wind/solar fluctuations, essentially replacing storage.
- Hamuko 11mo agoIt’s basic supply and demand. And by linking to other grids, you increase demand since there’s now more customers for your supply. What they have (comparatively) less is supply since the supply in those markets is shite in comparison to what Sweden and Norway have for their local demand.
- PunchyHamster 11mo agobut they have enough cheap power they have too much cheap power, so they decided to sell it. But the fact they have a buyer that buys for more than locals, means they do not longer have to sell to locals at low price. Tho it being state owned make it weird, you'd think state would keep lower rates for the people
- skeletal88 11mo agoPrices went up in norway because the uk had even higher prices than norway. Having these interconnections is good for producers in norway and consumers in Uk, but very bad for consumers in Norway
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- kragen 11mo agoDoes that mean Norway is making a huge amount of money exporting electricity over those interconnections?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- yxhuvud 11mo agoYes. But that is money the consumers don't see.
- theodorton 11mo agoThere are government subsidies for consumers to either have a fixed price or a price cap on electricity in Norway as a political response to the increase. This would be harder to pull off if not most of the profits from export didn’t land in the public sector (either taxes or government owned energy companies).
- kragen 11mo agoNorway has experience circumventing the resource curse/Dutch disease with undersea oil. Hopefully they'll manage it this time too.
- teiferer 11mo agoAbout 90% of Norway's 40 GW energy production (mostly hydro) is state owned. By exporting energy and thereby getting other countries to pay, the money literally goes to the norwegian people. Not directly into their bank accounts, but into their govt budgets, which they later pay less in taxes.
- bear141 11mo agoDo they actually pay less in taxes because of this? I’m not arguing. That is great and I would appreciate if you could provide a source for me to read.
- KaiserPro 11mo ago> Importing high prices from the failed energy politics of UK Remember that its a market, not the consumer price. The spot price for UK electricity is still quite competitive in the winter, just not reliable. The other thing to note is that peak in the UK is different to peak further up in longitude, which means that there is benefit to both countries for this.
- eru 10mo ago> Importing high prices from the failed energy politics of UK and Germany which both have among the most expensive electricity in the world. Look at it the other way: producers of electricity previously could only sell for cheap at home, and now they can export and make more money. That's good!
- citrin_ru 11mo ago> Norway can buy wind energy from the UK Even Southern England cannot get enough wind energy from Scotland to fully utilise wind farms because transmission capacity is insufficient. I would imagine a transmission line to Norway will be even more expensive than to England.
- ZeroGravitas 11mo agoBut they are building such a link, because it'll make/save more money than it costs. Imagine how many doom and gloom headlines we'd have avoided if these two massive construction projects could have been sync'd up perfectly or if we had a national press that could do anything other than try to scare people with big numbers.
- arcade79 11mo agoThe interconnects already exists.
- brohee 11mo agoSolving the Scotland/England interconnect under-capacity is well underway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-voltage_transmission_links_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-voltage_transmiss...