5 ms·

What you are describing has been proposed before, for example within context of projects like Breakthrough Starshot. In that the case the idea is to launch thou

by tpurves 11mo ago

What you are describing has been proposed before, for example within context of projects like Breakthrough Starshot. In that the case the idea is to launch thousands of probes, each weighing only a few grams or less, and accelerating them to an appreciable fraction of the speed of light using solar sails and (powerful) earth-based lasers. The probes could reach alpha centauri within 20-30 years. There seems to be some debate though about whether cross-links between probes to enable relaying signals is ever practical from a power and mass perspective vs a single very large receiver on earth.

Tepix 11mo ago
Indeed. I think the main reason to send thousands of probes is increasing the odds that they will survive the trip and also be in the right position to gather usable data to transmit back. Also once you have created the infrastructure of hundreds or thousands of very powerful lasers to accelerate the tiny probes to incredibel speeds, sending many probes instead of a few doesn't add much to the cost anyway.
- trhway 11mo ago
  Sun as a focus lens. "Just" 500 AU. The Voyager can be overtaken in several years if we to launch today a probe with nuclear reactor powered ionic thruster - all the existing today tech - which can get to 100-200km/s in 2-3 stages (and if we stretch the technology a bit into tomorrow, we can get 10x that).
  - Spare_account 11mo ago
    For anyone interested, this is approximately the wait/walk dilemma, specifically the interstellar travel subset: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wait/walk_dilemma#Interstellar_travel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wait/walk_dilemma#Interstellar... I was listening to an old edition of the Fraser Cain weekly question/answer podcast earlier where he described this exact thing. I think he said that someone has run the numbers in the context of human survivable travel to nearby stars and on how long we should wait and the conclusion was that we should wait about 600 years. Any craft for human transport to a nearby star system that we launch within the next 600 years will probably be overtaken before arrival at the target star system by ships launched after them.
    - randerson 11mo ago
      I guess there's a paradox in that we'd only make the progress needed to overtake if we are still launching throughout those 600 years and iteratively improving and getting feedback along the way. Because the alternative is everyone waiting on one big 600-year government project. Hard to imagine that going well. (And it has to be government, because no private company could raise funds with its potential payback centuries after the investors die. For that matter, I can't see a democratic government selling that to taxpayers for 150 straight election cycles either.)
      - Spare_account 11mo ago
        Yes, my understanding is that the 600 year figure was arrived at assuming that there is iterative progress in propulsion technology throughout the intervening years. But at the end of the day, it is just some number that some dude on YouTube said one time (although Fraser Cain is in fact not just some dude, he's a reliable space journalist (and you can take that from me, some dude on the Internet))
      - Dylan16807 11mo ago
        We can get lots of iterative practice on interplanetary ships, so not much paradox there. And the research doesn't need to be anywhere near continuous. It's valid to progress though bursts here and there every couple decades. And a lot of what we want is generic materials science.
  - Tepix 11mo ago
    From what I understand a Solar lens telescope could only point to a single destination. Btw 500 AU is 69 light hours.
dbacar 11mo ago
If I don't recall wrongly, Breakthrough Starshot was not a means for commnunicaiton relay as he describes.
- octaane 11mo ago
  It wasn't intended for a communications relay, but it was intended to have 2-way communication. I went down a rabbit hole reading ArXiv papers about it. Despite their tiny size, the probes could phone home with a smaller laser - according to the papers I read, spinning the photons a certain way would differentiate them from other photons, and we apparently have the equipment to detect and pick up those photons. The point of the communication would be for them to send back data and close-up images of the Alpha C system. Likewise, they could receive commands from earth by having dozens of probes effectively act as an interferometry array.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
EGreg 11mo ago
I bet you that this hasn't been proposed, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfClJxdQ6Xs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfClJxdQ6Xs I found that video very interesting! Especially the second half about apparent superliminal speed
- swifthesitation 11mo ago
  really wonderful explanation
chmod775 11mo ago
What these proposals like to forget (even if addressing everything else) is that you need to slow down once you arrive if you want to have any time at all for useful observation once you reach your destination. What's the point of reaching alpha centauri in 30 years if you're gonna zip past everything interesting in seconds? Will the sensors we can cram on tiny probes even be able to capture useful data at all under these conditions?
- noduerme 11mo ago
  Could the probe just fire off some mass when it got there?
  - Fargren 11mo ago
    Any mass that it fires would have a starting velocity equal to that of the probe, and would need to be accelerated an equal velocity in the opposite direction. It would be a smaller mass, so it would require less fuel than decelerating the whole probe; but it's still a hard problem. Be careful with the word "just". It often makes something hard sound simple.
    - noduerme 11mo ago
      Not trying to oversimplify. But suppose 95% of the probe's mass was intended to be jettisoned ahead of it on arrival by an explosive charge, and would then serve as a reflector. That might give enough time for the probe to be captured by the star's gravity...?
      - Fargren 11mo ago
        It seems to me that building a recording device that can survive in space, that it's very light, and that can not break apart after receiving the impact from an explosive charge strong enough to decelerate it from the speeds that would take it to Alpha Centauri is... maybe impossible. We're talking about 0.2 light years. To reach it in 20 years, that's 1/10th of the speed of light. The forces to decelerate that are pretty high. I did a quick napkin calculation (assuming the device weighs 1kg), that's close to 3000 kiloNewton, if it has 10 seconds to decelerate. The thrust of an F100 jet engine is around 130 kN. IANan aerounatics engineer, so I could be totally wrong.

by tpurves 11mo ago

Tepix 11mo ago

Indeed. I think the main reason to send thousands of probes is increasing the odds that they will survive the trip and also be in the right position to gather usable data to transmit back. Also once you have created the infrastructure of hundreds or thousands of very powerful lasers to accelerate the tiny probes to incredibel speeds, sending many probes instead of a few doesn't add much to the cost anyway.

trhway 11mo ago
Sun as a focus lens. "Just" 500 AU. The Voyager can be overtaken in several years if we to launch today a probe with nuclear reactor powered ionic thruster - all the existing today tech - which can get to 100-200km/s in 2-3 stages (and if we stretch the technology a bit into tomorrow, we can get 10x that).
- Spare_account 11mo ago
  For anyone interested, this is approximately the wait/walk dilemma, specifically the interstellar travel subset: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wait/walk_dilemma#Interstellar_travel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wait/walk_dilemma#Interstellar... I was listening to an old edition of the Fraser Cain weekly question/answer podcast earlier where he described this exact thing. I think he said that someone has run the numbers in the context of human survivable travel to nearby stars and on how long we should wait and the conclusion was that we should wait about 600 years. Any craft for human transport to a nearby star system that we launch within the next 600 years will probably be overtaken before arrival at the target star system by ships launched after them.
  - randerson 11mo ago
    I guess there's a paradox in that we'd only make the progress needed to overtake if we are still launching throughout those 600 years and iteratively improving and getting feedback along the way. Because the alternative is everyone waiting on one big 600-year government project. Hard to imagine that going well. (And it has to be government, because no private company could raise funds with its potential payback centuries after the investors die. For that matter, I can't see a democratic government selling that to taxpayers for 150 straight election cycles either.)
    - Spare_account 11mo ago
      Yes, my understanding is that the 600 year figure was arrived at assuming that there is iterative progress in propulsion technology throughout the intervening years. But at the end of the day, it is just some number that some dude on YouTube said one time (although Fraser Cain is in fact not just some dude, he's a reliable space journalist (and you can take that from me, some dude on the Internet))
    - Dylan16807 11mo ago
      We can get lots of iterative practice on interplanetary ships, so not much paradox there. And the research doesn't need to be anywhere near continuous. It's valid to progress though bursts here and there every couple decades. And a lot of what we want is generic materials science.
- Tepix 11mo ago
  From what I understand a Solar lens telescope could only point to a single destination. Btw 500 AU is 69 light hours.

dbacar 11mo ago

If I don't recall wrongly, Breakthrough Starshot was not a means for commnunicaiton relay as he describes.

octaane 11mo ago
It wasn't intended for a communications relay, but it was intended to have 2-way communication. I went down a rabbit hole reading ArXiv papers about it. Despite their tiny size, the probes could phone home with a smaller laser - according to the papers I read, spinning the photons a certain way would differentiate them from other photons, and we apparently have the equipment to detect and pick up those photons. The point of the communication would be for them to send back data and close-up images of the Alpha C system. Likewise, they could receive commands from earth by having dozens of probes effectively act as an interferometry array.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

EGreg 11mo ago

I bet you that this hasn't been proposed, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfClJxdQ6Xs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfClJxdQ6Xs I found that video very interesting! Especially the second half about apparent superliminal speed

swifthesitation 11mo ago
really wonderful explanation

chmod775 11mo ago

What these proposals like to forget (even if addressing everything else) is that you need to slow down once you arrive if you want to have any time at all for useful observation once you reach your destination. What's the point of reaching alpha centauri in 30 years if you're gonna zip past everything interesting in seconds? Will the sensors we can cram on tiny probes even be able to capture useful data at all under these conditions?

noduerme 11mo ago
Could the probe just fire off some mass when it got there?
- Fargren 11mo ago
  Any mass that it fires would have a starting velocity equal to that of the probe, and would need to be accelerated an equal velocity in the opposite direction. It would be a smaller mass, so it would require less fuel than decelerating the whole probe; but it's still a hard problem. Be careful with the word "just". It often makes something hard sound simple.
  - noduerme 11mo ago
    Not trying to oversimplify. But suppose 95% of the probe's mass was intended to be jettisoned ahead of it on arrival by an explosive charge, and would then serve as a reflector. That might give enough time for the probe to be captured by the star's gravity...?
    - Fargren 11mo ago
      It seems to me that building a recording device that can survive in space, that it's very light, and that can not break apart after receiving the impact from an explosive charge strong enough to decelerate it from the speeds that would take it to Alpha Centauri is... maybe impossible. We're talking about 0.2 light years. To reach it in 20 years, that's 1/10th of the speed of light. The forces to decelerate that are pretty high. I did a quick napkin calculation (assuming the device weighs 1kg), that's close to 3000 kiloNewton, if it has 10 seconds to decelerate. The thrust of an F100 jet engine is around 130 kN. IANan aerounatics engineer, so I could be totally wrong.