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If you read journalism about why women are frustrated with dating today, one of the number-one complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women ca

If you read journalism about why women are frustrated with dating today, one of the number-one complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her. Your depiction that “women don’t really need men” completely misses the current trend that this thread is about.

survirtual 11mo ago
I never said women don't need men, did I? Let me read what I said again. No, I never said that. I said women need safety, and society is largely not safe for them. Human beings are social creatures. Women need men. Women need women. Men need women. Men need men. We all need each other. The system patterns of online dating cultivate undesirable traits in both men and women which result in side effects that no one would want. "Flakiness" is one such side effect. Online dating dynamics create high abundance, low commitment environments that systematically produce “flakiness,” so the issue isn’t about women needing men or not, but that both sexes operate in a degraded safety/trust landscape shaped by platform incentives rather than by real world social cues. Restore actual interpersonal safety and the entire pattern shifts positive, with less defensive behavior, less attrition, less pain, and more ethical orgasms. All people, regardless of gender, should cultivate a safety in both society and in themselves. This safety is liberating. Instead of controlling people, you free them. Instead of binding, you uplift. Instead of harming, you heal. This is the basis of safety.
- HeinzStuckeIt 11mo ago
  Perhaps one of the problems with modern dating is that women expect a man to provide safety, but many men don’t want to be viewed as a source of safety? Me, I am only interested in relationship for companionship, someone with whom I can share interesting experiences, because joy is not complete unless it is shared. But when it comes to safety and security, a partner is on her own. That’s not to say that I wouldn’t do this or that for a partner, but it would be supererogatory. My male friends have a similar complaint, this isn’t just a HN thing. Again, this is probably an outcome of modernity. I likely wouldn’t think this way as a man, if I didn’t grow up in a modern age hearing that women are strong, they can take care of themselves and no longer depend on men.
  - survirtual 11mo ago
    We're speaking to different things. Safety doesn't mean you're a provider. It means you are safe to be authentic with. Safe to share truth with. That safety takes many forms. You cannot have depth without that safety. It is physical, it is also emotional and intellectual. For instance, without safety a partner would never join you on many interesting experiences. If you want those experiences, they need to be able to trust you. Now extend that idea of safety to a broad society context, and that is approaching what I was speaking to.
    - HeinzStuckeIt 11mo ago
      The safety I have heard demanded directly from women to me as a partner – or from female friends about the man they seek – is the safety of being a provider, giving them a feeling of security that they can’t manage to achieve on their own. It’s not just about a man being safe to be with. Again, you are speaking about something I haven’t heard from actual women, and I think I’ll trust the latter (and reportage matching it) over a HN stranger for forming my assumption of what women want from relationships. And again, maybe part of why women might be having problems with dating is that many men today don’t want to be seen as a big emotional support for a partner either. That’s draining and time-consuming. This might bother you, but my whole point is that the social pressures are no longer there to compel men (or women) to act a certain way, and that is impacting dating.
      - deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
      - staticman2 11mo ago
        You keep using words like "Provider" and "security". The words "provider" and "security" do not have specific meanings. I'm practice this could describe anything from: "I want a guy who is ripped like Conan the barbarian and beats the crap out of anyone who dares look at me funny" to: "I want to be a stay at home mom." To: "I want a guy with a job who splits rent with me."
      - survirtual 11mo ago
mrguyorama 10mo ago
> complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her. No, that's not a complaint that the "modern" man isn't some sort of 1950s provider, it's a complaint that he does not text back. Everyone on the apps suffers from ghosting. It's exhausting because you have to be "On" in 100% of your interactions and texts but there's only like a 2% chance it will continue in any shape no matter what you do. Even the "tradwife" trend is not actually harkening back to the 50s and a strong provider man, and instead lionizes a reality that never existed and is much more about wanting to check out of the rat race that harms us all. These women do not want to be a 1950s homemaker, they just want to focus on their hobbies and not worry about money.

survirtual 11mo ago

I never said women don't need men, did I? Let me read what I said again. No, I never said that. I said women need safety, and society is largely not safe for them. Human beings are social creatures. Women need men. Women need women. Men need women. Men need men. We all need each other. The system patterns of online dating cultivate undesirable traits in both men and women which result in side effects that no one would want. "Flakiness" is one such side effect. Online dating dynamics create high abundance, low commitment environments that systematically produce “flakiness,” so the issue isn’t about women needing men or not, but that both sexes operate in a degraded safety/trust landscape shaped by platform incentives rather than by real world social cues. Restore actual interpersonal safety and the entire pattern shifts positive, with less defensive behavior, less attrition, less pain, and more ethical orgasms. All people, regardless of gender, should cultivate a safety in both society and in themselves. This safety is liberating. Instead of controlling people, you free them. Instead of binding, you uplift. Instead of harming, you heal. This is the basis of safety.

HeinzStuckeIt 11mo ago
Perhaps one of the problems with modern dating is that women expect a man to provide safety, but many men don’t want to be viewed as a source of safety? Me, I am only interested in relationship for companionship, someone with whom I can share interesting experiences, because joy is not complete unless it is shared. But when it comes to safety and security, a partner is on her own. That’s not to say that I wouldn’t do this or that for a partner, but it would be supererogatory. My male friends have a similar complaint, this isn’t just a HN thing. Again, this is probably an outcome of modernity. I likely wouldn’t think this way as a man, if I didn’t grow up in a modern age hearing that women are strong, they can take care of themselves and no longer depend on men.
- survirtual 11mo ago
  We're speaking to different things. Safety doesn't mean you're a provider. It means you are safe to be authentic with. Safe to share truth with. That safety takes many forms. You cannot have depth without that safety. It is physical, it is also emotional and intellectual. For instance, without safety a partner would never join you on many interesting experiences. If you want those experiences, they need to be able to trust you. Now extend that idea of safety to a broad society context, and that is approaching what I was speaking to.
  - HeinzStuckeIt 11mo ago
    The safety I have heard demanded directly from women to me as a partner – or from female friends about the man they seek – is the safety of being a provider, giving them a feeling of security that they can’t manage to achieve on their own. It’s not just about a man being safe to be with. Again, you are speaking about something I haven’t heard from actual women, and I think I’ll trust the latter (and reportage matching it) over a HN stranger for forming my assumption of what women want from relationships. And again, maybe part of why women might be having problems with dating is that many men today don’t want to be seen as a big emotional support for a partner either. That’s draining and time-consuming. This might bother you, but my whole point is that the social pressures are no longer there to compel men (or women) to act a certain way, and that is impacting dating.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
    - staticman2 11mo ago
      You keep using words like "Provider" and "security". The words "provider" and "security" do not have specific meanings. I'm practice this could describe anything from: "I want a guy who is ripped like Conan the barbarian and beats the crap out of anyone who dares look at me funny" to: "I want to be a stay at home mom." To: "I want a guy with a job who splits rent with me."
    - survirtual 11mo ago

mrguyorama 10mo ago

> complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her. No, that's not a complaint that the "modern" man isn't some sort of 1950s provider, it's a complaint that he does not text back. Everyone on the apps suffers from ghosting. It's exhausting because you have to be "On" in 100% of your interactions and texts but there's only like a 2% chance it will continue in any shape no matter what you do. Even the "tradwife" trend is not actually harkening back to the 50s and a strong provider man, and instead lionizes a reality that never existed and is much more about wanting to check out of the rat race that harms us all. These women do not want to be a 1950s homemaker, they just want to focus on their hobbies and not worry about money.