6 ms·

Why I (Still) Love Linux ?

48 points by signa11 11mo ago

ekropotin 11mo ago
Still? Linux is better than ever!
- laughing_man 11mo ago
  I would argue it's getting better than Windows in relative terms by leaps and bounds. Mostly because Windows is getting worse, but still.
  - DeathArrow 11mo ago
    In what ways do you think Linux is getting better than Windows? Do you also think Linux is getting better than macOS or FreeBSD?
    - f1shy 11mo ago
      Linux > Windows - Respect privacy - Is integrating better AI: no invasive AI, yet available if wanted - Usability and stability of UI and intefaces MacOS and BSD [disclaimer: big fan of BSD] are somewhat stagnated. Depending on what you want to do, many open source projects are "linux first" what can be a problem (ask me how I know!)
    - cyberax 11mo ago
      Linux kernel is just waaaaayyyyy better than Windows, at this point. Better hardware support, better stability, more features. And it keeps getting better. Windows kernel is not _bad_, but it's developed by far fewer people. Linux also has systemd with its unified system resource management. I can slice and dice my system as I want between containers. Oh, and containers are also awesome (Windows has them, macOS doesn't). Desktop environments are a matter of personal taste. I like my DE very minimal: status bar, quick launcher panel, and that's it.
    - laughing_man 11mo ago
      When I bought a new Windows 11 machine I foolishly copied over my data from the last machine without doing any research. It was only after I was done that I realized by default Windows copies my user directory to Microsoft's "cloud", so all my tax returns and other personal data are bouncing around Microsoft's servers somewhere. I sure hope their security is good. By default Windows shows ads in my start menu. It also shows me ads in my notifications. I guess I could understand if it was free, but it's not. And then there's Copilot...
      - akimbostrawman 11mo ago
        Don't forget forced online account for an offline operating system and the default browser edge sharing all visited full urls with microsoft in the name of smartcreen safe browsing.
      - 4ggr0 11mo ago
        > I could understand if it was free, but it's not. never in my life have i paid for a windows license. https://github.com/massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts https://github.com/massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts
        mmh0000 11mo ago
        If you've bought a pre-built computer, desktop, or laptop, you've paid for Windows. Traditionally, we've called this the Microsoft Windows Tax[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows - This is why I never feel guilty about "pirating" Windows. I've already paid for it!
        4ggr0 11mo ago
        huh, good point! never saw it that way. never bought a pre-built myself, but the first PC i got when i was a kid was a pre-built with Windows on it. the argument i always used is that Windows feels like spyware, and slowly seems to turn into it. showing me ads, selling my data. don't see why i should pay for this.
    - seba_dos1 11mo ago
      It is better since at least 2006, otherwise I'd choose another OS to use since then, and I didn't.
    - arethuza 11mo ago
      On my home desktop PC Windows 10 is saying I can't upgrade to Windows 11 and doesn't give any explanation. There's nothing wrong with the machine and I hate Windows 11 anyway (I have to use it on my work laptop) so there is no chance that I will buy a completely new PC just to run Windows 11. So Linux has always been getting slowly better over the years (I first used it more than 30 years ago) and Windows has been getting a lot worse - so Linux easily wins.
  - f1shy 11mo ago
    Windows is going downhill in a hurry, while MacOS is stagnated (at best), while Linux is constantly advancing, slowly, maybe sometime the wrong path, but always moving.
- draga79 11mo ago
  For a desktop experience? Sure! For a server that needs to be supported for many years? Well...
  - kalaksi 11mo ago
    Well what? Don't most servers run Linux? And support is good assuming you pick a distro that fits
    - draga79 11mo ago
      They do. And yes, choosing a good distribution will help. But the fact that most servers run Linux isn't indicating it's the best choice. Most desktops run Windows - and this doesn't mean it's the best desktop OS :-)
      - s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
        > But the fact that most servers run Linux isn't indicating it's the best choice True, but server choice is typically made by professionals, while desktop choice typically isn't. So people measure those two by a (imo correct) double standard
      - kalaksi 11mo ago
        Sure, but that's also why I asked you explain your comment.
        draga79 11mo ago
        I've explained it here, even if it's a bit long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVp25-6Qao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVp25-6Qao
  - jaapz 11mo ago
    Is this a different timeline where suddenly everything is the other way round?
  - stockerta 11mo ago
sidkshatriya 11mo ago
From the blog post: > Even if your btrfs, after almost 18 years, still eats data in spectacular fashion. Is this (by now) an urban legend ? Is btrfs any less reliable than, say, xfs/ext4 etc. nowadays ?
- zorked 11mo ago
  No, Linux is made of legends that never die.
- XorNot 11mo ago
  I wouldn't know I've been running ZFS for well over a decade.
- alrs 11mo ago
  Traditionally it was btrfs RAID5/6 that really sucked. I've not played with it.
- Propelloni 11mo ago
  SUSE is using btrfs as the default filesystem in all their offerings. I think that SLES is less widespread than RHEL, but I also think those people at SUSE know what they are doing. It's not like we hear of massive data loss from SLES environments all the time.
- kiney 11mo ago
  for features declared stable it's been an urban legend for a long time. I use BTRFS in prod since I think 2016 which was also the last year I lost data to an BTRFS Bug
- chao- 11mo ago
  I used btrfs for most of the 2010's. I nearly lost some data once, and was able to recover it. Afterwards, I moved to ZFS and never looked back. btrfs may be great now, and more power to people who use it and are happy. However, I am so used to the ergonomics of ZFS (and zed, and ZFS integrated encryption) that I don't see a reason to migrate back.
- 5d41402abc4b 11mo ago
travisgriggs 11mo ago
Like the author, I am saddened by systemd. I'm not rabidly opposed to it. I use it because Debian uses it and I like debian. And in some ways, I like the consistency better than the plethora of init script/run levels I used to have to deal with. But it does lack (to me) the Unix gestalt of having composable little pieces that could be pretty well put together and are each individually documentable and compose well in conceptual space as well. There was less surprises and nuanced side effects.
- gausswho 11mo ago
  Great timing this article. I came to HN to escape a frustration point where this blooming script behaves differently when wrapped in a systemd service than when I run it on its own. I suspect there's some systemd punctuatory dance with a throwaway character here or there to semaphore me off to neverneverland. It's so inscrutable sometimes.
- uecker 11mo ago
  I wholeheartedly I agree with the author and you. It is sad how Linux is incrementally reshaped based on ideas which often betray the original principles that made UNIX, it derivatives, and copies great. But it is on us to create alternatives. It is free software after all.
  - pjmlp 11mo ago
    Principles that Aix, HP-UX, Solaris, DG/UX, Tru64, NeXTSTEP,.... have forgotten long before FOSS circles keep repeating them as some ideology kind of thing.
- vincentkriek 11mo ago
  As an init manager, systemd is the best thing that has happened to the wider linux ecosystem. Being able to indicate dependencies, document order and being able to let an application tell the init manager it is done and dependents of it can be started makes starting up way better. I understand the downsides people have of systemd, but I have the feeling the huge upside is often overlooked.
DeathArrow 11mo ago
I still think the Cathedral is a better model than the Bazaar when it comes to user facing software. For me, Linux as a server OS is great but as a desktop OS is not so great.
- signa11 11mo ago
  > ... Cathedral is a better model than the Bazaar ... well, for the desktop possible choices from the `Cathedral` are: - windows, and - macos of late, both seem to have gone in directions that are antithetical to what $random user wants f.e. pushing ai-features, tahoe ui snafu respectively etc. etc. in `Bazaar` mode, xfce has been an *excellent* choice for quite a while now, and should probably serve `Cathedral` refugees quite well. all in all, not super convinced of the argument that you seem to be proffering here.
  - windward 11mo ago
    BSD is given as an example of the cathedral in the book.
    - signa11 11mo ago
      indeed, iirc, the 1998 usenix presentation by mckusick et al, seems to be an earlier record of (than the book) these s/w development models. fwiw, both the gnu project and freebsd champion this (cathedral style of) development model. however, i don't think linux or bsd is *purely* either approach. w.r.t `user-facing software` which seems to be central thesis of gp, both the alternates (bsd/linux) offer almost an identical choice.
  - pjmlp 11mo ago
    Or Android, HyperOS, DeX, Harmony OS NEXT, running in desktop mode.
0dayz 11mo ago
As a former hater of systemd it surprises me that people still have this disdain of systemd especially due to the so called "Unix philosophy", which in the Linux world mainly survives due to GNU writing GNUtils a rewriting of the Unix commands. I remember embracing systemd funny enough due to when I was running alpine as my server and I had to write my own r script and boy did that quickly make me remember the awful times on freebsd debugging sh.
- general1465 11mo ago
  Same for me, I remember trying to configure cron to run a task periodically and it just did not budge. No error but also did not work. Systemd was working on first attempt with basic debugging when timer will be triggered again and what is the log of executed process after it has been triggered. Also manually triggering something to test if command is correct? Awesome.
  - shevy-java 11mo ago
    That seems to me a complaint about cron. I always used ruby to schedule tasks instead. One does not need cron or systemd for scheduling tasks.
    - jraph 11mo ago
      What tool do you use to schedule tasks? Have you written your own Cron in Ruby?
    - KetoManx64 11mo ago
      How would I best schedule a task across a couple dozen Linux servers using ansible without cron or systemd timers?
  - imiric 11mo ago
    This is precisely why it is valid to say that systemd doesn't align with the Unix philosophy, and yet it's also valid that many people such as yourself like it. I don't want my init system to replace cron. I don't want it to manage logging. I don't want it to have any debugging capabilities. All of these things can be done with other programs, arguably in a much more flexible and robust way. An init system should do one thing (well): manage system services. Within that context, it should start services on boot, keep them running in the background, and allow the user to create, stop, and start services. That's it. And it could be argued that even those responsibilities are too broad for a single program. So I understand that you and many others like that systemd provides solutions to all of these tasks in an integrated way. But you should also understand that this does in fact go against the Unix philosophy, of small, independent, but composable programs with a single responsibility. It "proposes" alternatives to many other tools for no particular reason, until users are effectively using GNU/systemd/Linux. And, yes, I know that technically systemd is not a monolith and is composed of many programs, but that is a moot point. It is a single project, maintained by a strongly opinionated team, and given the importance of it, most distros go all-in, so users are strongly recommended, if not forced, to use all of its programs. In many cases it's not even possible to use one individual systemd program idependently from another. This is why systemd is seen as a kraken that takes over the entire system if you do decide to use one part of it.
mythz 11mo ago
It's already the best OS for development and doesn't even need to do anything to get more appealing whilst Microsoft continues to enshittify Windows 11+ and Apple turns macOS into a locked down iPad.
63stack 11mo ago
Why would you not love linux? MacOS is a walled garden that keeps you from running things you wrote on the machine you own, and windows is gestures at everything. What else is there?
- windward 11mo ago
  Those are solid reasons not to like MacOS and Windows but I'm left without your case for loving Linux. I'm reminded of when people advocate for politicians by attacking their opposition, not by praising their own candidate.
  - 63stack 11mo ago
    It's the only desktop OS that treats you like a person who owns the hardware you bought.
- pjmlp 11mo ago
  Some of us just care about some POSIX support, regardless of the delivery.
coolThingsFirst 11mo ago
Even as someone who regularly gets pissed off at some issues that I kept having with Ubuntu. Linux is AMAZING. It's ridiculous that we have a fully functioning open source OS which not only works but is the basis for almost everything that runs a web server. The experimental flavors are also insane in their creativity. Alpine linux is an entire OS in tens of megabytes. That's crazy!
shevy-java 11mo ago
> The BSDs and the illumos distributions generally follow an approach to design and development that aligns more closely with the way I think My impression has been that Linux is simply better than the BSDs. Now, BSD users may disagree; my point is primarily that Linux is more flexible overall. Take LFS/BLFS - you basically have extensive documention how to adjust Linux. Where is that available for BSD on an equal basis? And that is just one example of many more. I remember in the past how NetBSD on the mailing list acknowledged that Linux runs on more computers, including the very important toasters, than NetBSD. Momentum means a lot. Top 500 supercomputers run Linux too: https://www.top500.org/statistics/details/osfam/1/ https://www.top500.org/statistics/details/osfam/1/ These may all be small reasons but they add up eventually. > To give an example, I am not against systemd on principle And it is possible to use Linux without systemd too. Nobody wants a corporate-controlled project in Linux anyway. Where does Poettering work? ;) > Therefore, in certain cases, the GPL becomes a double-edged sword: on one hand, it protects the software and ensures that contributions remain available. On the other, it risks creating a situation where the most "influential" player can totally direct development But that is possible in the MIT/BSD world too. See Shopify controlling RubyCentral and thus the ruby ecosystem. Money makes the world go round. I don't think this complaint is really down to the GPL. The GPL is strict; it ensures that corporations need to open up their own modifications. > And so yes, despite all this, I (still) love Linux. I don't have any "love" for Linux as such. I simply think it is a good operating system. It is also a tinker-friendly operating system. I significantly prefer ruby as such; I also would not say I "love" ruby, but ruby is a very well-designed language (even ignoring the meta-influence by the shopify overlord). At the end of the day, though, these are just tools. They do things. They ideally help save time and cost. Having the same in the Windows world is not really possible, not even via WSL. WSL just makes windows suck less but windows still sucks immensely; I know because I also use windows almost daily. And I use ruby there too, which makes windows suck less, but it's not a great experience compared to linux. > Because it has been my life companion for 30 years and has contributed significantly to putting food on the table and letting me sleep soundly. Because it allowed me to study without spending insane amounts on licenses or manuals. Because it taught me, first, to think outside the box. To be free. > So thank you, GNU/Linux. It's a strange summary to me. I also call Linux just Linux, without the prefaced GNU. I understand RMS; I just don't think you need to fight in an ideological way. Let the facts and advantages speak for themselves - that suffices. And pick the right licence too. But ... "life companion"? What does that even mean? And what does "to be free" even mean? You still depend on code written by other people. So you depend on those people too. It's better than depending on Microsoft, but I don't fully understand that blog entry really.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
jibal 11mo ago
I was a UNIX developer (kernel, as well as userland programs like troff) for 7 years, working for the first company to provide commercial support. (Our founder, the former head of the Cornell CompSci department, while at RAND, had them make legal arrangements for Western Electric to provide RAND with a commercial license for $20,000 for the no-support tape that they provided to universities for $300 ... from there the commercial UNIX world took off.) Later I started my Linux life with the Yggdrasil distro, my first of many. Nowadays, in retirement, I do development on WSL on Windows. (Getting a working and convenient emacs environment on it was a bit of effort but now it's how I do all of my editing.)
zoobab 11mo ago
I spent a day fixing an important server in a DataCenter because of the tight coupling between SystemD and the Kernel version. What a mess.
pjmlp 11mo ago
For me Linux distributions have always been a way to have cheap UNIX like systems at home, any POSIX like system will do, it could equally been one of the BSDs or Windows NT/POSIX, had Microsoft been actually serious about it. Actually I was more found of Solaris, Irix, NeXTSTEP in how they approached the whole development experience. Still got some nice memories of Aix and HP-UX as well, with Xenix and DG/UX as introductory experiences to the UNIX world. Something like Android is closer to how Plan 9/Inferno got to be, than most GNU/Linux distros, regarding a managed userspace, and more interesting to see where it all goes. Or modern approaches like Unikernels (even if POSIX based), managed runtimes on top of type 1 hypervisors, immutable container based OSes,.... Also commercial UNIXes never followed the "Unix philosophy" that keeps being endless recited in Linux circles, ironically, given that GNU tools are hardly anything to go by, given the endless list of options they have available.
djaouen 11mo ago
What I've come to love about Linux is not its profitability (though many find its knowledge to be lucrative), but that it doesn't judge its users to be stupid by default.
tasuki 11mo ago
> Even if your btrfs, after almost 18 years, still eats data in spectacular fashion. Say what?!? I use btrfs for my backups...
- M95D 11mo ago
  > I use btrfs for my backups... Say what?!? I got burned too. I made a snapshot and "btrfs send" it by pipe to an xz archive. When I tried to restore, I got a CRC error (from "btrfs receive", not xz). Everything lost. There's no way to restore it now.
  - nolist_policy 11mo ago
    There could very well be bitrot in your xz archive without xz detecting it: https://www.nongnu.org/lzip/xz_inadequate.html#checking https://www.nongnu.org/lzip/xz_inadequate.html#checking
jmclnx 11mo ago
> It is your device that is not compatible with Linux No truer words, and it is very hard to get people to understand that phrase. Like the author I tried to get people on-board with Linux in the 90's, but it was a very hard time. No one switched, and considering I worked on a large programming group, to my surprise the people who heard of it was very small. After IBM did its thing in 2000, a couple of years later these same people would ask me questions about it, but no one switched. My manager even had me do a demo on it at work. But the direction of Linux is worrying me. But I have a second older Laptop with a BSD on it, and that will give me an out if necessary. Sadly that may happen sooner then later :(

48 points by signa11 11mo ago

ekropotin 11mo ago

Still? Linux is better than ever!

laughing_man 11mo ago
I would argue it's getting better than Windows in relative terms by leaps and bounds. Mostly because Windows is getting worse, but still.
- DeathArrow 11mo ago
  In what ways do you think Linux is getting better than Windows? Do you also think Linux is getting better than macOS or FreeBSD?
  - f1shy 11mo ago
    Linux > Windows - Respect privacy - Is integrating better AI: no invasive AI, yet available if wanted - Usability and stability of UI and intefaces MacOS and BSD [disclaimer: big fan of BSD] are somewhat stagnated. Depending on what you want to do, many open source projects are "linux first" what can be a problem (ask me how I know!)
  - cyberax 11mo ago
    Linux kernel is just waaaaayyyyy better than Windows, at this point. Better hardware support, better stability, more features. And it keeps getting better. Windows kernel is not _bad_, but it's developed by far fewer people. Linux also has systemd with its unified system resource management. I can slice and dice my system as I want between containers. Oh, and containers are also awesome (Windows has them, macOS doesn't). Desktop environments are a matter of personal taste. I like my DE very minimal: status bar, quick launcher panel, and that's it.
  - laughing_man 11mo ago
    When I bought a new Windows 11 machine I foolishly copied over my data from the last machine without doing any research. It was only after I was done that I realized by default Windows copies my user directory to Microsoft's "cloud", so all my tax returns and other personal data are bouncing around Microsoft's servers somewhere. I sure hope their security is good. By default Windows shows ads in my start menu. It also shows me ads in my notifications. I guess I could understand if it was free, but it's not. And then there's Copilot...
    - akimbostrawman 11mo ago
      Don't forget forced online account for an offline operating system and the default browser edge sharing all visited full urls with microsoft in the name of smartcreen safe browsing.
    - 4ggr0 11mo ago
      > I could understand if it was free, but it's not. never in my life have i paid for a windows license. https://github.com/massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts https://github.com/massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts
      - mmh0000 11mo ago
        If you've bought a pre-built computer, desktop, or laptop, you've paid for Windows. Traditionally, we've called this the Microsoft Windows Tax[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows - This is why I never feel guilty about "pirating" Windows. I've already paid for it!
        4ggr0 11mo ago
        huh, good point! never saw it that way. never bought a pre-built myself, but the first PC i got when i was a kid was a pre-built with Windows on it. the argument i always used is that Windows feels like spyware, and slowly seems to turn into it. showing me ads, selling my data. don't see why i should pay for this.
  - seba_dos1 11mo ago
    It is better since at least 2006, otherwise I'd choose another OS to use since then, and I didn't.
  - arethuza 11mo ago
    On my home desktop PC Windows 10 is saying I can't upgrade to Windows 11 and doesn't give any explanation. There's nothing wrong with the machine and I hate Windows 11 anyway (I have to use it on my work laptop) so there is no chance that I will buy a completely new PC just to run Windows 11. So Linux has always been getting slowly better over the years (I first used it more than 30 years ago) and Windows has been getting a lot worse - so Linux easily wins.
- f1shy 11mo ago
  Windows is going downhill in a hurry, while MacOS is stagnated (at best), while Linux is constantly advancing, slowly, maybe sometime the wrong path, but always moving.
draga79 11mo ago
For a desktop experience? Sure! For a server that needs to be supported for many years? Well...
- kalaksi 11mo ago
  Well what? Don't most servers run Linux? And support is good assuming you pick a distro that fits
  - draga79 11mo ago
    They do. And yes, choosing a good distribution will help. But the fact that most servers run Linux isn't indicating it's the best choice. Most desktops run Windows - and this doesn't mean it's the best desktop OS :-)
    - s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
      > But the fact that most servers run Linux isn't indicating it's the best choice True, but server choice is typically made by professionals, while desktop choice typically isn't. So people measure those two by a (imo correct) double standard
    - kalaksi 11mo ago
      Sure, but that's also why I asked you explain your comment.
      - draga79 11mo ago
        I've explained it here, even if it's a bit long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVp25-6Qao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVp25-6Qao
- jaapz 11mo ago
  Is this a different timeline where suddenly everything is the other way round?
- stockerta 11mo ago

sidkshatriya 11mo ago

From the blog post: > Even if your btrfs, after almost 18 years, still eats data in spectacular fashion. Is this (by now) an urban legend ? Is btrfs any less reliable than, say, xfs/ext4 etc. nowadays ?

zorked 11mo ago
No, Linux is made of legends that never die.
XorNot 11mo ago
I wouldn't know I've been running ZFS for well over a decade.
alrs 11mo ago
Traditionally it was btrfs RAID5/6 that really sucked. I've not played with it.
Propelloni 11mo ago
SUSE is using btrfs as the default filesystem in all their offerings. I think that SLES is less widespread than RHEL, but I also think those people at SUSE know what they are doing. It's not like we hear of massive data loss from SLES environments all the time.
kiney 11mo ago
for features declared stable it's been an urban legend for a long time. I use BTRFS in prod since I think 2016 which was also the last year I lost data to an BTRFS Bug
chao- 11mo ago
I used btrfs for most of the 2010's. I nearly lost some data once, and was able to recover it. Afterwards, I moved to ZFS and never looked back. btrfs may be great now, and more power to people who use it and are happy. However, I am so used to the ergonomics of ZFS (and zed, and ZFS integrated encryption) that I don't see a reason to migrate back.
5d41402abc4b 11mo ago

travisgriggs 11mo ago

Like the author, I am saddened by systemd. I'm not rabidly opposed to it. I use it because Debian uses it and I like debian. And in some ways, I like the consistency better than the plethora of init script/run levels I used to have to deal with. But it does lack (to me) the Unix gestalt of having composable little pieces that could be pretty well put together and are each individually documentable and compose well in conceptual space as well. There was less surprises and nuanced side effects.

gausswho 11mo ago
Great timing this article. I came to HN to escape a frustration point where this blooming script behaves differently when wrapped in a systemd service than when I run it on its own. I suspect there's some systemd punctuatory dance with a throwaway character here or there to semaphore me off to neverneverland. It's so inscrutable sometimes.
uecker 11mo ago
I wholeheartedly I agree with the author and you. It is sad how Linux is incrementally reshaped based on ideas which often betray the original principles that made UNIX, it derivatives, and copies great. But it is on us to create alternatives. It is free software after all.
- pjmlp 11mo ago
  Principles that Aix, HP-UX, Solaris, DG/UX, Tru64, NeXTSTEP,.... have forgotten long before FOSS circles keep repeating them as some ideology kind of thing.
vincentkriek 11mo ago
As an init manager, systemd is the best thing that has happened to the wider linux ecosystem. Being able to indicate dependencies, document order and being able to let an application tell the init manager it is done and dependents of it can be started makes starting up way better. I understand the downsides people have of systemd, but I have the feeling the huge upside is often overlooked.

DeathArrow 11mo ago

I still think the Cathedral is a better model than the Bazaar when it comes to user facing software. For me, Linux as a server OS is great but as a desktop OS is not so great.

signa11 11mo ago
> ... Cathedral is a better model than the Bazaar ... well, for the desktop possible choices from the `Cathedral` are: - windows, and - macos of late, both seem to have gone in directions that are antithetical to what $random user wants f.e. pushing ai-features, tahoe ui snafu respectively etc. etc. in `Bazaar` mode, xfce has been an *excellent* choice for quite a while now, and should probably serve `Cathedral` refugees quite well. all in all, not super convinced of the argument that you seem to be proffering here.
- windward 11mo ago
  BSD is given as an example of the cathedral in the book.
  - signa11 11mo ago
    indeed, iirc, the 1998 usenix presentation by mckusick et al, seems to be an earlier record of (than the book) these s/w development models. fwiw, both the gnu project and freebsd champion this (cathedral style of) development model. however, i don't think linux or bsd is *purely* either approach. w.r.t `user-facing software` which seems to be central thesis of gp, both the alternates (bsd/linux) offer almost an identical choice.
- pjmlp 11mo ago
  Or Android, HyperOS, DeX, Harmony OS NEXT, running in desktop mode.

0dayz 11mo ago

As a former hater of systemd it surprises me that people still have this disdain of systemd especially due to the so called "Unix philosophy", which in the Linux world mainly survives due to GNU writing GNUtils a rewriting of the Unix commands. I remember embracing systemd funny enough due to when I was running alpine as my server and I had to write my own r script and boy did that quickly make me remember the awful times on freebsd debugging sh.

general1465 11mo ago
Same for me, I remember trying to configure cron to run a task periodically and it just did not budge. No error but also did not work. Systemd was working on first attempt with basic debugging when timer will be triggered again and what is the log of executed process after it has been triggered. Also manually triggering something to test if command is correct? Awesome.
- shevy-java 11mo ago
  That seems to me a complaint about cron. I always used ruby to schedule tasks instead. One does not need cron or systemd for scheduling tasks.
  - jraph 11mo ago
    What tool do you use to schedule tasks? Have you written your own Cron in Ruby?
  - KetoManx64 11mo ago
    How would I best schedule a task across a couple dozen Linux servers using ansible without cron or systemd timers?
- imiric 11mo ago
  This is precisely why it is valid to say that systemd doesn't align with the Unix philosophy, and yet it's also valid that many people such as yourself like it. I don't want my init system to replace cron. I don't want it to manage logging. I don't want it to have any debugging capabilities. All of these things can be done with other programs, arguably in a much more flexible and robust way. An init system should do one thing (well): manage system services. Within that context, it should start services on boot, keep them running in the background, and allow the user to create, stop, and start services. That's it. And it could be argued that even those responsibilities are too broad for a single program. So I understand that you and many others like that systemd provides solutions to all of these tasks in an integrated way. But you should also understand that this does in fact go against the Unix philosophy, of small, independent, but composable programs with a single responsibility. It "proposes" alternatives to many other tools for no particular reason, until users are effectively using GNU/systemd/Linux. And, yes, I know that technically systemd is not a monolith and is composed of many programs, but that is a moot point. It is a single project, maintained by a strongly opinionated team, and given the importance of it, most distros go all-in, so users are strongly recommended, if not forced, to use all of its programs. In many cases it's not even possible to use one individual systemd program idependently from another. This is why systemd is seen as a kraken that takes over the entire system if you do decide to use one part of it.

mythz 11mo ago

It's already the best OS for development and doesn't even need to do anything to get more appealing whilst Microsoft continues to enshittify Windows 11+ and Apple turns macOS into a locked down iPad.

63stack 11mo ago

Why would you not love linux? MacOS is a walled garden that keeps you from running things you wrote on the machine you own, and windows is gestures at everything. What else is there?

windward 11mo ago
Those are solid reasons not to like MacOS and Windows but I'm left without your case for loving Linux. I'm reminded of when people advocate for politicians by attacking their opposition, not by praising their own candidate.
- 63stack 11mo ago
  It's the only desktop OS that treats you like a person who owns the hardware you bought.
pjmlp 11mo ago
Some of us just care about some POSIX support, regardless of the delivery.

coolThingsFirst 11mo ago

Even as someone who regularly gets pissed off at some issues that I kept having with Ubuntu. Linux is AMAZING. It's ridiculous that we have a fully functioning open source OS which not only works but is the basis for almost everything that runs a web server. The experimental flavors are also insane in their creativity. Alpine linux is an entire OS in tens of megabytes. That's crazy!

shevy-java 11mo ago

> The BSDs and the illumos distributions generally follow an approach to design and development that aligns more closely with the way I think My impression has been that Linux is simply better than the BSDs. Now, BSD users may disagree; my point is primarily that Linux is more flexible overall. Take LFS/BLFS - you basically have extensive documention how to adjust Linux. Where is that available for BSD on an equal basis? And that is just one example of many more. I remember in the past how NetBSD on the mailing list acknowledged that Linux runs on more computers, including the very important toasters, than NetBSD. Momentum means a lot. Top 500 supercomputers run Linux too: https://www.top500.org/statistics/details/osfam/1/ https://www.top500.org/statistics/details/osfam/1/ These may all be small reasons but they add up eventually. > To give an example, I am not against systemd on principle And it is possible to use Linux without systemd too. Nobody wants a corporate-controlled project in Linux anyway. Where does Poettering work? ;) > Therefore, in certain cases, the GPL becomes a double-edged sword: on one hand, it protects the software and ensures that contributions remain available. On the other, it risks creating a situation where the most "influential" player can totally direct development But that is possible in the MIT/BSD world too. See Shopify controlling RubyCentral and thus the ruby ecosystem. Money makes the world go round. I don't think this complaint is really down to the GPL. The GPL is strict; it ensures that corporations need to open up their own modifications. > And so yes, despite all this, I (still) love Linux. I don't have any "love" for Linux as such. I simply think it is a good operating system. It is also a tinker-friendly operating system. I significantly prefer ruby as such; I also would not say I "love" ruby, but ruby is a very well-designed language (even ignoring the meta-influence by the shopify overlord). At the end of the day, though, these are just tools. They do things. They ideally help save time and cost. Having the same in the Windows world is not really possible, not even via WSL. WSL just makes windows suck less but windows still sucks immensely; I know because I also use windows almost daily. And I use ruby there too, which makes windows suck less, but it's not a great experience compared to linux. > Because it has been my life companion for 30 years and has contributed significantly to putting food on the table and letting me sleep soundly. Because it allowed me to study without spending insane amounts on licenses or manuals. Because it taught me, first, to think outside the box. To be free. > So thank you, GNU/Linux. It's a strange summary to me. I also call Linux just Linux, without the prefaced GNU. I understand RMS; I just don't think you need to fight in an ideological way. Let the facts and advantages speak for themselves - that suffices. And pick the right licence too. But ... "life companion"? What does that even mean? And what does "to be free" even mean? You still depend on code written by other people. So you depend on those people too. It's better than depending on Microsoft, but I don't fully understand that blog entry really.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

jibal 11mo ago

I was a UNIX developer (kernel, as well as userland programs like troff) for 7 years, working for the first company to provide commercial support. (Our founder, the former head of the Cornell CompSci department, while at RAND, had them make legal arrangements for Western Electric to provide RAND with a commercial license for $20,000 for the no-support tape that they provided to universities for $300 ... from there the commercial UNIX world took off.) Later I started my Linux life with the Yggdrasil distro, my first of many. Nowadays, in retirement, I do development on WSL on Windows. (Getting a working and convenient emacs environment on it was a bit of effort but now it's how I do all of my editing.)

zoobab 11mo ago

I spent a day fixing an important server in a DataCenter because of the tight coupling between SystemD and the Kernel version. What a mess.

pjmlp 11mo ago

For me Linux distributions have always been a way to have cheap UNIX like systems at home, any POSIX like system will do, it could equally been one of the BSDs or Windows NT/POSIX, had Microsoft been actually serious about it. Actually I was more found of Solaris, Irix, NeXTSTEP in how they approached the whole development experience. Still got some nice memories of Aix and HP-UX as well, with Xenix and DG/UX as introductory experiences to the UNIX world. Something like Android is closer to how Plan 9/Inferno got to be, than most GNU/Linux distros, regarding a managed userspace, and more interesting to see where it all goes. Or modern approaches like Unikernels (even if POSIX based), managed runtimes on top of type 1 hypervisors, immutable container based OSes,.... Also commercial UNIXes never followed the "Unix philosophy" that keeps being endless recited in Linux circles, ironically, given that GNU tools are hardly anything to go by, given the endless list of options they have available.

djaouen 11mo ago

What I've come to love about Linux is not its profitability (though many find its knowledge to be lucrative), but that it doesn't judge its users to be stupid by default.

tasuki 11mo ago

> Even if your btrfs, after almost 18 years, still eats data in spectacular fashion. Say what?!? I use btrfs for my backups...

M95D 11mo ago
> I use btrfs for my backups... Say what?!? I got burned too. I made a snapshot and "btrfs send" it by pipe to an xz archive. When I tried to restore, I got a CRC error (from "btrfs receive", not xz). Everything lost. There's no way to restore it now.
- nolist_policy 11mo ago
  There could very well be bitrot in your xz archive without xz detecting it: https://www.nongnu.org/lzip/xz_inadequate.html#checking https://www.nongnu.org/lzip/xz_inadequate.html#checking

jmclnx 11mo ago

> It is your device that is not compatible with Linux No truer words, and it is very hard to get people to understand that phrase. Like the author I tried to get people on-board with Linux in the 90's, but it was a very hard time. No one switched, and considering I worked on a large programming group, to my surprise the people who heard of it was very small. After IBM did its thing in 2000, a couple of years later these same people would ask me questions about it, but no one switched. My manager even had me do a demo on it at work. But the direction of Linux is worrying me. But I have a second older Laptop with a BSD on it, and that will give me an out if necessary. Sadly that may happen sooner then later :(