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I think the point is we’re getting there. These models are growing up real fast. Remember 54% of US adults read at or below the equivalent of a sixth-grade leve
by Herring 11mo ago
I think the point is we’re getting there. These models are growing up real fast. Remember 54% of US adults read at or below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level.
- lm28469 11mo ago> Remember 54% of US adults read at or below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level. The sane conclusion would be to invest in education, not to dump hundreds of billions of llms, but ok
- Herring 11mo agoIn theory yeah, but in practice 54% will also vote against funding education. Catch-22.
- tehjoker 11mo agoNot true, most people are not upper-middle class anti-tax wackos. They benefit from those people being taxed.
- wmeredith 11mo agoThe electorate in the U.S. commonly votes against its own interests.
- krainboltgreene 11mo agoPithy, but not true.
- mavhc 11mo agoThat's why you phrase it as "woke liberals turning your children gay!" In USA K-12 education costs about $300k 350 million people, want to get 175 million of them better educated, but we've already spent $52 trillion dollars on educating them so far
- tehjoker 11mo agoThe people most vociferously for conservative values are middle class, small business owners, or upper class, though the true upper class are libertine (notice who participated in the Epstein affair). The working class is filled with all kinds of very diverse people united by the fact they have to work for a living and often can't afford e.g. expensive weddings. Some of them are religious, a whole bunch aren't. It's easy to be disillusioned with formal institutions that seem to not care at all about you. Unfortunately, a lot of these people have either concluded it is too difficult to vote, can't vote, or that their votes don't matter (I don't think they're wrong). Their unions were also destroyed. Some of them vote against their interests, but it's not clear that their interests are ever represented, so they vote for change instead.
- reverius42 11mo ago> Their unions were also destroyed. By policy changes giving unions less power, enacted by politicians that were mostly voted for by a majority, which is mostly composed of the working class. Was this people voting against their interests? (Almost literally yes, but you could argue that their ideological preference for weaker unions trumps their economic interest in stronger unions.)
- cj 11mo agoIn my own social/family circle, there’s no correlation between net worth and how someone leans politically. I’ve never understood why given the pretty obvious pros/cons (amount paid in taxes vs. benefits received)
- tehjoker 11mo agoThat's interesting b/c I see it very obviously in mine with the partial exception of myself. The more professional and private sector their job or spouse, the more conservative they are. E.g a real estate lawyer is conservative, a lawyer for the state is liberal, a software engineer is a communist, and the musicians are libertarians or socialist-lite. Professional or artisanal work are petit bourgeois positions, so are flexible in their outlook regardless of income.
- cj 11mo agoI have rural farmers and truck drivers in my extended family. That stereotype is low income + conservative.
- tehjoker 11mo agoIf they own their own land or equipment it makes more sense. It's their relationship to production that is the driving force, but if they are not self-employed and don't own their own equipment it is a little more of an interesting situation.
- Izikiel43 11mo agoIn WA they always pass levies for education funding at local and state level however results are not there. Mississipi is doing better on reading, the biggest difference being that they use phonics approach to teaching how to read, which is proven to work, whereas WA uses whole language theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language), which is a terrible idea I don't know how it got traction. So the gist of it, yes, spend on education, but ensure that you are using the right tools, otherwise it's a waste of money.
- forgotoldacc 11mo agoFirst time hearing of whole language theory, and man, it sounds ridiculous. Sounds similar to the old theory that kids who aren't taught a language at all will simply speak perfect Hebrew.
- Herring 11mo agoI almost agree, but too many people will take that to mean “we need to do more with less”. It’s a feature of capitalism. Teachers are stretched thin in most places, that’s always the main problem. Are WA teachers compensated about the same as other similarly educated professionals? As cops? Hire smart motivated people, pay them well, leave them alone, they’ll figure this one out. It’s not hard, anyone can google what Finland does.
- Izikiel43 11mo ago> WA teachers compensated about the same as other similarly educated professionals WA teachers are among the best salaries in the country for being a teacher (within top 5). You start at around 84k$ I think, 90k$+ if you have a masters degree, at least in Seattle, and it can scale up to 150k$ with enough seniority, as well as pension plan. > Hire smart motivated people, pay them well, leave them alone, they’ll figure this one out. It’s not hard, anyone can google what Finland does. The problem is not the teachers themselves, it's what the system tells them to teach. You can have the best teacher in the world, but if they use BS curricula students will unfortunately learn BS. Think about it, you can have brilliant engineers, but an idiot ceo, and the company will fail despite the engineers.
- brightball 11mo agoInvesting in education is a trap because no matter how much money is pumped into the current model, it’s not making a difference. We need different models and then to invest in the successes, over and over again…forever.
- thewebguyd 11mo agoBecause education alone in a vacuum won't fix the issues. Even if the current model was working, just continuing to invest money in it while ignoring other issues like early childhood nutrition, a good and healthy home environment, environmental impacts, etc. will just continue to fail people. Schooling alone isn't going to help the kid with a crappy home life, with poor parents who can't afford proper nutrition, and without the proper tools to develop the mindset needed to learn (because these tools were never taught by the parents, and/or they are too focused on simply surviving). We, as a society, need to stop allowing people to be in a situation where they can't focus on education because they are too focused on working and surviving.
- brightball 11mo agoExactly correct.
- krainboltgreene 11mo agoIt's so hilarious to look at 10k years of education history and be like "Nah, funding doesn't make a difference." Incredible.
- brightball 11mo agoThe US already spends more per student than almost any other country (5th globally) and the outcomes are getting constantly worse. It’s not a funding problem.
- reverius42 11mo agoA lot of that funding in the US goes to pay teachers money they then use to pay for health insurance -- which in other countries is often provided by the tax base at large and not counted as an education expense.
- daedrdev 11mo agoEducation is not just a funding issues. Policy choices, like making it impossible for students to fail which means they have no incentive to learn anything, can be more impactful.
- taurath 11mo agoBut holy shit is it also a funding issue when teachers make nothing.
- gilfoy 11mo agoAs far as I understand it, the problem isn’t that teachers are shit. Giving more money would bring in better teachers, but I don’t know that they’d be able to overcome the other obstacles
- BoiledCabbage 11mo ago> Giving more money would bring in better teachers, but I don’t know that they’d be able to overcome the other obstacles Start with the easiest thing to control? Of giving more money and see what it does? We seem to believe in every other industry that to get the best talent pay a high salary salary, but for some reason we expect teachers to do it out of compassion for the children while they struggle to pay bills. It's absurd. Probably one of the single most important responsibilities of a society is to prepare the next generation, and it pays enormous return. But because we can't measure it with quarterly profits we just ignore it. The rate of return on providing society with as good education is insane.
- throwawaylaptop 11mo agoI date a lot of teachers. My last one was in the San Ramon (CA) Valley School district, she makes about $90k a year at 34 years old. Talking to her basically makes me want to homeschool my kids to make sure someone like her isn't their teacher. Paying teachers more won't do ANYTHING until we become a lot more selective about who gets to become and stay a teacher. It can't be like most government jobs where getting it is like winning the lottery and knowing you can make above market money for below market performance.
- acheron 11mo agoEducation funding is highest in places that have the worst results. Try again.
- krainboltgreene 11mo agoJust flatly not true.
- Izikiel43 11mo agoBecause they use whole language theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language) instead of phonics for teaching how to read.
- mythrwy 11mo agoNew Mexico (where I live) is dead last in education out of all 50 states. They are currently advertising for elementary school teachers between 65-85K per year. Summers off. Nice pension. In this low cost of living state that is a very good salary, particularly the upper bands. I don't think it's a money issue at this point.
- lm28469 11mo agoYes for example is its very well known that Angola has a top tier education system while Swedish people can barely read or count
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoWell, if you actually look at the data: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-expenditures-by-country https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-exp... We spend far more than most countries per pupil, for much poorer results https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scor... It's pretty clear that while spending is a factor, it's probably not the biggest one. The countries that seem to do best are those that combine adequate funding with real rigor in instruction.
- jlawson 11mo agoUnfortunately, people are born with a certain intellectual capacity and can't be improved beyond that with any amount of training or education. We're largely hitting peoples' capacities already. We can't educate someone with 80 IQ to be you; we can't educate you (or I) into being Einstein. The same way we can't just train anyone to be an amazing basketball player.
- Herring 11mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage Modern society benefits a lot from specialization. It's like the dumbest kid in France is still better at French than you.
- ragequittah 11mo agoOther countries have better outcomes. I doubt it's just because of the genetics.
- tptacek 11mo agoThis is extremely not settled science. Education in fact does improve IQ and we don't know how fixed intelligence is and how it responds to different environmental cues.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoFrom what I've read, IQ is one of the more heritable traits, but only about 50% of one's intelligence is attributable to one's genes. That means there are absolutely still massive benefits to be had in trying to ensure that kids grow up in safe, loving homes, with proper amounts of stimulation and enrichment, and are taught with a growth, not a fixed potential mindset. Sad to say, but your own fixed mindset probably held you back from what you could truly achieve. You don't have to be Einstein to operate on the cutting edge of a field, I think most nobel prize winners have an iq of ~ 120
- Izikiel43 11mo agoIt's not just investing in education, it's using tools proven to work. WA spends a ton of money on education, and on reading Mississipi, the worst state for almost every metric, has beaten them. The difference? Mississipi went hard on supporting students and using phonics which are proven to work. WA still uses the hippie theory of guessing words from pictures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language) for learning how to read.
- tsss 11mo agoYou don't need an educated workforce if you have machines that can do it reliably. The more important question is: who will buy your crap if your population is too poor due to lack of well paying jobs? A look towards England or Germany has the answer.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoThe top 10% of households already account for more than half of consumer spending in the US
- akavi 11mo agoHmmm, that doesn't seem right. I'm having a hard time finding an actual consumption number, but I am confident it's well below 50%. The top 10% of households by wage income do receive ~50% of pre-tax wage income, but: 1) our tax system is progressive, so actual net income share is less 2) there's significant post-wage redistribution (social security/medicaid) 3) that high income households consume a smaller percent of their net income is a well established fact.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agohttps://www.marketplace.org/story/2025/09/17/top-10-of-earners-make-up-half-of-us-retail-spending https://www.marketplace.org/story/2025/09/17/top-10-of-earne...
- PostOnce 11mo agoA question for the not-too-distant future: What use is an LLM in an illiterate society?
- jcheng 11mo agoAutomatic speech recognition and speech to text models are also growing up real fast.
- PostOnce 11mo agoBut will an illiterate person be able to articulate themselves well enough to get the LLM to do what they want, even with a speech interface? Will they possess the skills (or even the vocabulary) to understand the output? We won't know for another 20 years, perhaps.
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- bossyTeacher 11mo agoThinking that speech recognise is a solution to the illiterate is like thinking that low code tools can replace traditional programming tools. The bottleneck is and has always been the cognitive capacity limits of your average human. No interface can solve the issue of humans being illiterate
- throw310822 11mo agoAbsurd question. The correct one is "what use is an illiterate in an LLM society".
- AdieuToLogic 11mo ago> What use is an LLM in an illiterate society? The ability to feign literacy such that critical thought and ability to express same is not a prerequisite.