6 ms·

Usually around now (6am PST), HN tends to be dominated by Western (and some Eastern) European commentators. I've noticed they tend to have a weird mix of orient

Usually around now (6am PST), HN tends to be dominated by Western (and some Eastern) European commentators. I've noticed they tend to have a weird mix of orientalist sentiment along with a "Europe should be able to do this too" sentiment (though in a lot of cases, this is moreso sentiment than reality).

gsf_emergency_6 1y ago
Let me contribute my Europeanist sentiment by pointing out that the harmonious design of the fab is pure tatemae. The Japanese professional class care fuckall about PFAS and environmental issues have always been low on the list of priorities. Sorry. I love the Hokkaido produce. https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemistries/fluorotechnology-per-and-polyfluoroalkyl-substances-pfas/pfas-critical-to-semiconductors-and-advanced-technologies https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemi...
- tdeck 1y ago
  It's certainly something to be concerned about. Even the building where MOS Technology made the 6502 (in Norristown PA) is still a contaminated EPA superfund site. It's an industry with very nasty chemicals and a long history of leaking them.
jack_tripper 1y ago
>I've noticed they tend to have a weird mix of orientalist sentiment along with a "Europe should be able to do this too". Is it wrong for people in Europe to wish for more cutting-edge/high-margin opportunities in their back yard, especially given the currently atrocious state of the job market? Like you read news how TSMC's cutting edge chips are made in Taiwan and US fabs, then you looks at European fabs and the most cutting edge are 16/12nm. People are seeing the lag with their own eyes and wish for some change.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring. Nothing stopped European nations like Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, etc from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs. Just becuase Europe was historically the richest and most powerful continent doesn't mean it will be forever.
  - jack_tripper 1y ago
    >Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, as there was no disrespecting anyone there with my comment, and I basically agree with your point. That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has. They don't want to be stuck competition with China in commodity widgets like cars or low margin 16nm-65nm microcontrollers. There's a limited market for ASML machines, Siemens gas turbines, and Airbus planes which can't support economic growth of the entire block. >Nothing stopped European nations like from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs. They're developed outside of Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, etc since private businesses care most about prioritizing shareholder returns, not national sovereignty. And with Western EUs high labor costs, high taxes, high bureaucracy, strong unions, private companies slowly moved jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper to do business, no unions, less environmentalism, less labor protections, etc. Everyone with basic business know-how could have seen this coming but people still thought they could have their cake and eat it too in the globally cutthroat "free market" economy. Case in point, Nokia just announced it is closing Infinera's Munich office and moving all operations to the US.
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      > That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has. They don't want to be stuck competition with China in commodity widgets like cars or low margin 16nm-65nm microcontrollers You can't build an ecosystem for bleeding edge work without an even larger pipeline of non-bleeding edge and even legacy workflow. For example, it's 14nm that pays the bills for TSMC - not 5nm/7nm. And much of the entire Taiwanese electronics industry is largely coalesced around legacy nodes and low value work as well. > There's a limited market for ASML machines Made in American using American IP by a US DoE JV. > high bureaucracy, strong unions, private companies slowly moved jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper to do business, no unions, less environmentalism, less labor protections, etc Yet European Biopharma and chemicals engineering remains competitive despite having similar issues as a similar capex heavy industry with a significant IP component. It's really just an institutional issue.
catigula 1y ago
"Everyone except for me is an -ist. I'm an enlightened non-ist."

gsf_emergency_6 1y ago

Let me contribute my Europeanist sentiment by pointing out that the harmonious design of the fab is pure tatemae. The Japanese professional class care fuckall about PFAS and environmental issues have always been low on the list of priorities. Sorry. I love the Hokkaido produce. https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemistries/fluorotechnology-per-and-polyfluoroalkyl-substances-pfas/pfas-critical-to-semiconductors-and-advanced-technologies https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemi...

tdeck 1y ago
It's certainly something to be concerned about. Even the building where MOS Technology made the 6502 (in Norristown PA) is still a contaminated EPA superfund site. It's an industry with very nasty chemicals and a long history of leaking them.

jack_tripper 1y ago

>I've noticed they tend to have a weird mix of orientalist sentiment along with a "Europe should be able to do this too". Is it wrong for people in Europe to wish for more cutting-edge/high-margin opportunities in their back yard, especially given the currently atrocious state of the job market? Like you read news how TSMC's cutting edge chips are made in Taiwan and US fabs, then you looks at European fabs and the most cutting edge are 16/12nm. People are seeing the lag with their own eyes and wish for some change.

alephnerd 1y ago
Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring. Nothing stopped European nations like Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, etc from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs. Just becuase Europe was historically the richest and most powerful continent doesn't mean it will be forever.
- jack_tripper 1y ago
  >Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, as there was no disrespecting anyone there with my comment, and I basically agree with your point. That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has. They don't want to be stuck competition with China in commodity widgets like cars or low margin 16nm-65nm microcontrollers. There's a limited market for ASML machines, Siemens gas turbines, and Airbus planes which can't support economic growth of the entire block. >Nothing stopped European nations like from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs. They're developed outside of Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, etc since private businesses care most about prioritizing shareholder returns, not national sovereignty. And with Western EUs high labor costs, high taxes, high bureaucracy, strong unions, private companies slowly moved jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper to do business, no unions, less environmentalism, less labor protections, etc. Everyone with basic business know-how could have seen this coming but people still thought they could have their cake and eat it too in the globally cutthroat "free market" economy. Case in point, Nokia just announced it is closing Infinera's Munich office and moving all operations to the US.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has. They don't want to be stuck competition with China in commodity widgets like cars or low margin 16nm-65nm microcontrollers You can't build an ecosystem for bleeding edge work without an even larger pipeline of non-bleeding edge and even legacy workflow. For example, it's 14nm that pays the bills for TSMC - not 5nm/7nm. And much of the entire Taiwanese electronics industry is largely coalesced around legacy nodes and low value work as well. > There's a limited market for ASML machines Made in American using American IP by a US DoE JV. > high bureaucracy, strong unions, private companies slowly moved jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper to do business, no unions, less environmentalism, less labor protections, etc Yet European Biopharma and chemicals engineering remains competitive despite having similar issues as a similar capex heavy industry with a significant IP component. It's really just an institutional issue.

catigula 1y ago

"Everyone except for me is an -ist. I'm an enlightened non-ist."