5 ms·

You had a valid point right up to your last sentence where you just had to take a dig at PHP devs.

by jemka 14y ago

debacle 14y ago
Do I need to apologize for pointing out PHP's obvious flaws and that anyone who doesn't need to use PHP for hosting reasons or for library/framework reasons probably isn't using it? I use PHP to develop for the web every day. Thus far, the friction of PHP being a bad language hasn't outweighed the utility of it being easy, though as time goes on that utility is worth less and less.
- jemka 14y ago
  You should apologize for insinuating a person's choice of a programming language is a reflection of their intelligence. I'm sure you're perfectly capable of writing marvelous code in PHP or any other language.
  - debacle 14y ago
    Most PHP programmers aren't choosing PHP from a toolbox of 5-10 languages that they know really well. They're choosing PHP from a toolbox of one language that they kind of know.
    - dwj 14y ago
      I've written my own programming language and VM, and I mostly use php for web development because it's quick, easy and gets the job done. Your theory that php developers are lazy and stupid is just nuts. You can write bad code in any language if you want to. I think you've perhaps gotten into the trap of assuming that if a programmer doesn't use the latest cool language (Ruby, Coffeescript, etc.) they are dumb.
      - chipotle_coyote 14y ago
        The comment you're replying to didn't assert that most PHP developers are lazy and stupid, but rather asserted that most PHP programmers are using PHP because it's the first "web" language they were introduced to and they haven't really learned anything else. And that's okay. But I'd strongly assert that "PHP is quick, easy and gets the job done" does not support the assertion "PHP is a well-designed language." From what I've seen, Laravel is as high-quality an MVC framework as anything you could find in another language. But if it's a truism that terrific coders can produce terrific code in any programming language -- and I think it is -- then "there is terrific code in PHP" is not a defense of PHP's language design.
        jtreminio 14y ago
        > From what I've seen, Laravel is as high-quality an MVC framework as anything you could find in another language. No, it's not. You should maybe replace Laravel with Symfony 2.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    - kyriakos 14y ago
      thats completely not true. I've worked professionally with both C# & Java (at enterprise level) but my current job uses primarily PHP for development - i feel very comfortable with it and i'm more efficient in it than doing the same web development in eiher of the two languages. I also touched ruby and python but I don't consider them part of my knowledge since I didn't really use them professionally and thats why I don't want to include them in my statement above.
    - mylittlepony 14y ago
      Can we take a look at the data you analyzed to come to that conclusion?
      - blindhippo 14y ago
        He has none - he's spouting an unfounded view about a technology that he has no idea about.
        andrewflnr 14y ago
        debacle stated upthread that he uses PHP daily.
        mylittlepony 14y ago
        > Thus far, the friction of PHP being a bad language hasn't outweighed the utility of it being easy, though as time goes on that utility is worth less and less. But he uses it only because it's easy? Sounds like the very kind of developer he's trying to mock.
        andrewflnr 14y ago
        The developers he(?) is mocking use PHP because it's the only tool they know. He, supposedly, uses PHP because he has decided it's ease of use (and deployability) make it better than the other tools he knows for the projects he's working on. I don't think this is hard to figure out from what he's written here.
    - blindhippo 14y ago
      "Most NodeJS programmers aren't choosing NodeJS from a toolbox of 5-10 technologies that they know really well. They're choosing NodeJS from a list of hipster approved technologies that they can brag about to their friends." See, I can make ridiculous statements about things I don't know anything about too! (note: I no next to nothing about NodeJS - I enjoy javascript as a language but haven't had a chance to actually use NodeJS beyond a couple tutorials)
  - jamesbritt 14y ago
    You should apologize for insinuating a person's choice of a programming language is a reflection of their intelligence. That's not what I got from the comment (though, as an aside, I do think that there is a correlation between programming smarts and language/framework choice, adjusted for circumstances.) It sounded to me that people pick PHP for assorted reasons, one being the surrounding support environment (cheap hosting, ease of slapping together a works-ok-right-now site, ease of finding replacement devs when needed). Another reason for choosing PHP, though, is because you don't have to have serious coding chops to make practical use of it. OTOH, mobile dev requires at least some serious coding chops, and does not have the equivalent support environment for PHP. And if you have some decent coding chops you are likely to want to use a better-designed language than PHP.
    - blindhippo 14y ago
      "I do think that there is a correlation between programming smarts and language/framework choice, adjusted for circumstances." Please, explain this in further detail. List out which languages are "smarter" and why. Please provide empirical evidence to back up this thesis and explain the methodology followed to gather and interpret the data. Otherwise, stop saying ridiculous things that you can't back up. In addition, please explain what about PHP makes it unsuitable for the mobile platform when clearly Java does just fine there. I'll need more then a link to the "fractal of bad design" blog post. I'm honestly curious why people continue to talk about PHP's bad design without really explaining what makes their chosen replacement better.
      - jamesbritt 14y ago
        Please, explain this in further detail. List out which languages are "smarter" and why. Please provide empirical evidence to back up this thesis and explain the methodology followed to gather and interpret the data. Otherwise, stop saying ridiculous things that you can't back up. Please, get over yourself. I expressed an opinion. I wrote "I do think that ..." It's obviously anecdotal, based on personal and professional experience. YMMV and all that. Stop with the pretentious "back up this thesis" crap. I'm honestly curious why people continue to talk about PHP's bad design without really explaining what makes their chosen replacement better. I guess it's like porn. You know it when you see it. I'd choose Ruby over PHP for Web dev any chance I could. I doubt I have the resources to prove to you why this makes sense. Such is life. I did a few years of PHP work, then learned Ruby, and never looked back. What can I say. As far as a can tell the range of available libraries for each language is about equivalent. I can use JRuby and use any Java lib as well. Deploying and hosting Ruby or JRuby is quite easy for me. While Ruby is not flawless I am personally convinced is less sucky than PHP. Opinions may differ; it matters not to me. If your experience is the the contrary, go forth and be happy in your choices. I have a feeling I should link to some pg essay at this point, but I'm too tired to go find one. Besides, those who care will likely have already read it, and those who don't, won't.
- conradfr 14y ago
  Your two sentences sort of contradict each other.
  - debacle 14y ago
    Which two, and in what way? I had to re-write my initial comment a few times because I realized I wasn't getting my point across properly.

You had a valid point right up to your last sentence where you just had to take a dig at PHP devs.

by jemka 14y ago

You had a valid point right up to your last sentence where you just had to take a dig at PHP devs.

Do I need to apologize for pointing out PHP's obvious flaws and that anyone who doesn't need to use PHP for hosting reasons or for library/framework reasons probably isn't using it? I use PHP to develop for the web every day. Thus far, the friction of PHP being a bad language hasn't outweighed the utility of it being easy, though as time goes on that utility is worth less and less.

jemka 14y ago
You should apologize for insinuating a person's choice of a programming language is a reflection of their intelligence. I'm sure you're perfectly capable of writing marvelous code in PHP or any other language.
- debacle 14y ago
  Most PHP programmers aren't choosing PHP from a toolbox of 5-10 languages that they know really well. They're choosing PHP from a toolbox of one language that they kind of know.
  - dwj 14y ago
    I've written my own programming language and VM, and I mostly use php for web development because it's quick, easy and gets the job done. Your theory that php developers are lazy and stupid is just nuts. You can write bad code in any language if you want to. I think you've perhaps gotten into the trap of assuming that if a programmer doesn't use the latest cool language (Ruby, Coffeescript, etc.) they are dumb.
    - chipotle_coyote 14y ago
      The comment you're replying to didn't assert that most PHP developers are lazy and stupid, but rather asserted that most PHP programmers are using PHP because it's the first "web" language they were introduced to and they haven't really learned anything else. And that's okay. But I'd strongly assert that "PHP is quick, easy and gets the job done" does not support the assertion "PHP is a well-designed language." From what I've seen, Laravel is as high-quality an MVC framework as anything you could find in another language. But if it's a truism that terrific coders can produce terrific code in any programming language -- and I think it is -- then "there is terrific code in PHP" is not a defense of PHP's language design.
      - jtreminio 14y ago
        > From what I've seen, Laravel is as high-quality an MVC framework as anything you could find in another language. No, it's not. You should maybe replace Laravel with Symfony 2.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - kyriakos 14y ago
    thats completely not true. I've worked professionally with both C# & Java (at enterprise level) but my current job uses primarily PHP for development - i feel very comfortable with it and i'm more efficient in it than doing the same web development in eiher of the two languages. I also touched ruby and python but I don't consider them part of my knowledge since I didn't really use them professionally and thats why I don't want to include them in my statement above.
  - mylittlepony 14y ago
    Can we take a look at the data you analyzed to come to that conclusion?
    - blindhippo 14y ago
      He has none - he's spouting an unfounded view about a technology that he has no idea about.
      - andrewflnr 14y ago
        debacle stated upthread that he uses PHP daily.
        mylittlepony 14y ago
        > Thus far, the friction of PHP being a bad language hasn't outweighed the utility of it being easy, though as time goes on that utility is worth less and less. But he uses it only because it's easy? Sounds like the very kind of developer he's trying to mock.
        andrewflnr 14y ago
        The developers he(?) is mocking use PHP because it's the only tool they know. He, supposedly, uses PHP because he has decided it's ease of use (and deployability) make it better than the other tools he knows for the projects he's working on. I don't think this is hard to figure out from what he's written here.
  - blindhippo 14y ago
    "Most NodeJS programmers aren't choosing NodeJS from a toolbox of 5-10 technologies that they know really well. They're choosing NodeJS from a list of hipster approved technologies that they can brag about to their friends." See, I can make ridiculous statements about things I don't know anything about too! (note: I no next to nothing about NodeJS - I enjoy javascript as a language but haven't had a chance to actually use NodeJS beyond a couple tutorials)
- jamesbritt 14y ago
  You should apologize for insinuating a person's choice of a programming language is a reflection of their intelligence. That's not what I got from the comment (though, as an aside, I do think that there is a correlation between programming smarts and language/framework choice, adjusted for circumstances.) It sounded to me that people pick PHP for assorted reasons, one being the surrounding support environment (cheap hosting, ease of slapping together a works-ok-right-now site, ease of finding replacement devs when needed). Another reason for choosing PHP, though, is because you don't have to have serious coding chops to make practical use of it. OTOH, mobile dev requires at least some serious coding chops, and does not have the equivalent support environment for PHP. And if you have some decent coding chops you are likely to want to use a better-designed language than PHP.
  - blindhippo 14y ago
    "I do think that there is a correlation between programming smarts and language/framework choice, adjusted for circumstances." Please, explain this in further detail. List out which languages are "smarter" and why. Please provide empirical evidence to back up this thesis and explain the methodology followed to gather and interpret the data. Otherwise, stop saying ridiculous things that you can't back up. In addition, please explain what about PHP makes it unsuitable for the mobile platform when clearly Java does just fine there. I'll need more then a link to the "fractal of bad design" blog post. I'm honestly curious why people continue to talk about PHP's bad design without really explaining what makes their chosen replacement better.
    - jamesbritt 14y ago
      Please, explain this in further detail. List out which languages are "smarter" and why. Please provide empirical evidence to back up this thesis and explain the methodology followed to gather and interpret the data. Otherwise, stop saying ridiculous things that you can't back up. Please, get over yourself. I expressed an opinion. I wrote "I do think that ..." It's obviously anecdotal, based on personal and professional experience. YMMV and all that. Stop with the pretentious "back up this thesis" crap. I'm honestly curious why people continue to talk about PHP's bad design without really explaining what makes their chosen replacement better. I guess it's like porn. You know it when you see it. I'd choose Ruby over PHP for Web dev any chance I could. I doubt I have the resources to prove to you why this makes sense. Such is life. I did a few years of PHP work, then learned Ruby, and never looked back. What can I say. As far as a can tell the range of available libraries for each language is about equivalent. I can use JRuby and use any Java lib as well. Deploying and hosting Ruby or JRuby is quite easy for me. While Ruby is not flawless I am personally convinced is less sucky than PHP. Opinions may differ; it matters not to me. If your experience is the the contrary, go forth and be happy in your choices. I have a feeling I should link to some pg essay at this point, but I'm too tired to go find one. Besides, those who care will likely have already read it, and those who don't, won't.
conradfr 14y ago
Your two sentences sort of contradict each other.
- debacle 14y ago
  Which two, and in what way? I had to re-write my initial comment a few times because I realized I wasn't getting my point across properly.