3 ms·

And when has a union ever stopped a multinational company from just closing shop and opening up overseas? If a company making physical things can do it, how har

And when has a union ever stopped a multinational company from just closing shop and opening up overseas? If a company making physical things can do it, how hard do you think it would be for a software company?

ljf 1y ago
While they cannot stop something like that (a Union never gets to control the business), they can at least negotiate good terms for the departing employees, and help ensure everything is in order.
- alkonaut 1y ago
  > a Union never gets to control the business This varies. e.g. Sweden: if there are over 25 employees, the union gets a seat in the board. https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/aktiebolag/startaaktiebolag/styrelseochverkstallandedirektoriaktiebolag/arbetstagarrepresentanteriaktiebolag.507.html https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/aktiebolag/startaaktiebol...
  - ljf 1y ago
    A seat at the board is great, but that won't stop a company making major changes like those described.
- raw_anon_1111 1y ago
  Have you ever heard about someone who was laid off from a major tech company complain about the severance amount? My n=1 experience at BigTech is that I got $40K severance after 3 years (and anecdotally had 3 offers within two weeks of looking in 2023. But I realize the market is worse now than then) And that severance was from Amazon.
  - ljf 1y ago
    FAANG maybe not, but there are heaps of horror stories from plenty of other big and medium tech players.
    - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
      And I bet you a paycheck that those developers are making at least twice the median local wage and definitely more then they would make in Europe. Why weren’t they saving money? My first goal out of college back in 1996 was to build up savings and this was in 1996 when I was working as a computer operator making $33K in Atlanta. Fast forward to 2020, I used all of my RSUs/signing bonus to rebuild savings, pay off debt and when Amazon started Amazoning, I had 9 months worth of savings in the bank. But people are being laid off from BigTech after working there for decade having an existential crisis. I’m thinking WTF have they been doing with their money.
vincnetas 1y ago
sweden has unions and sweden has software companies. could it be that reasonable approach that benefits both parties can be achieved?
- raw_anon_1111 1y ago
  Is your argument for unions that if we had them software engineers may get the benefit of making 1/3 the compensation in America that they do now?
- instig007 1y ago
  Sweden isn't famous for good tech salaries and stock grants though, even among the best/high profile engineers.
  - impossiblefork 1y ago
    Yes, to get rich in Sweden you have to start a company. Wages are terrible. But this is, I think, a result of a historical government strategy to favour exports by keeping the Swedish krona weak rather than a result of unions. This whole business with alignment between the Swedish social democrat party and the big industrial export companies are a thing which simultaneously allowed Sweden to develop but which also brought enormous problems. The immigration madness of, 1990 to now is probably also a result of this alignment.
  - mlrtime 1y ago
    And this is where the union threads die, every time. Top post is essentially saying Americans/SWE are dumb for not being in a union, then comparing to other countries. As soon as someone companies US SWE salaries to these union countries it falls apart quickly.
    - triceratops 1y ago
      So show us non-US countries without SWE labor unions that have high SWE salaries.
snaily 1y ago
If it is indeed easy to move operations wholesale, I think we would see far more and quicker cases (not just arbitraging differences in labor organization, but also e.g. tax and regulatory regimes). It certainly happens, mind you, but my read is that different forms of institutional inertia puts a damper on the willingness to "re-home".
Bombthecat 1y ago
Or close the location and just reopen later on. Story time: Berlin in Germany is pretty left leaning. So there was / is a MC Donalds which regularly formed union for employees, MC Donalds just closed the restaurant and reopened later, several times lol
- autoexec 1y ago
  Ideally there'd be laws against this, and public backlash as well. Even non-unionized Workers in Germany will be better off than their American counterparts, but they still deserve strong protections for unions.
- wvbdmp 1y ago
  I’m not familiar with that particular story, but it’s worth noting that there is a nationwide union for franchise restaurant workers called NGG. They negotiate standard wages with the franchise restaurant association BdS which all the big names adhere to (McDonald’s, Burger King, KFC, but also, for example, Starbucks). Your story sounds like it’s about a “Betriebsrat”, which represents workers within a specific workplace, complementary to wider unions.
brianmcc 1y ago
I don't think anyone's saying unions can do that? They can protect workers and provide some balance in the power dynamics, but there absolutely are limits.
autoexec 1y ago
It's not as if companies aren't shipping non-union jobs overseas or importing labor from overseas anyway. There's also a certain amount of irrational sentiment around silicon valley and the west coast generally. There's little doubt that companies could move shop to places in the US that aren't so insanely overpriced and without the high cost of living, especially with work from home being so popular, but for whatever reason (the weather, the "scene", the culture) companies are happy where they are and I don't expect that to change so quickly. It sure is nice having a lot of money and having a lot of nice options on where/how to spend it anyway, which might not always be the case in the overseas neighborhoods filled with unionless sweatshops.
- raw_anon_1111 1y ago
  This is very much an HN bubble sentiment. Most of the 2 million+ developers in the US aren’t anywhere near the west coast and are still making twice what they make in Europe working for boring old enterprises like Delta, Home Depot, Coca Cola etc. I am mentioning these three because I spent all of my career as enterprise dev working in Atlanta between 1996 anc 2020 and those are the well known enterprise companies. Choose any other major metro city in the US outside of the west coast and you will see the same.

ljf 1y ago

While they cannot stop something like that (a Union never gets to control the business), they can at least negotiate good terms for the departing employees, and help ensure everything is in order.

alkonaut 1y ago
> a Union never gets to control the business This varies. e.g. Sweden: if there are over 25 employees, the union gets a seat in the board. https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/aktiebolag/startaaktiebolag/styrelseochverkstallandedirektoriaktiebolag/arbetstagarrepresentanteriaktiebolag.507.html https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/aktiebolag/startaaktiebol...
- ljf 1y ago
  A seat at the board is great, but that won't stop a company making major changes like those described.
raw_anon_1111 1y ago
Have you ever heard about someone who was laid off from a major tech company complain about the severance amount? My n=1 experience at BigTech is that I got $40K severance after 3 years (and anecdotally had 3 offers within two weeks of looking in 2023. But I realize the market is worse now than then) And that severance was from Amazon.
- ljf 1y ago
  FAANG maybe not, but there are heaps of horror stories from plenty of other big and medium tech players.
  - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
    And I bet you a paycheck that those developers are making at least twice the median local wage and definitely more then they would make in Europe. Why weren’t they saving money? My first goal out of college back in 1996 was to build up savings and this was in 1996 when I was working as a computer operator making $33K in Atlanta. Fast forward to 2020, I used all of my RSUs/signing bonus to rebuild savings, pay off debt and when Amazon started Amazoning, I had 9 months worth of savings in the bank. But people are being laid off from BigTech after working there for decade having an existential crisis. I’m thinking WTF have they been doing with their money.

vincnetas 1y ago

sweden has unions and sweden has software companies. could it be that reasonable approach that benefits both parties can be achieved?

raw_anon_1111 1y ago
Is your argument for unions that if we had them software engineers may get the benefit of making 1/3 the compensation in America that they do now?
instig007 1y ago
Sweden isn't famous for good tech salaries and stock grants though, even among the best/high profile engineers.
- impossiblefork 1y ago
  Yes, to get rich in Sweden you have to start a company. Wages are terrible. But this is, I think, a result of a historical government strategy to favour exports by keeping the Swedish krona weak rather than a result of unions. This whole business with alignment between the Swedish social democrat party and the big industrial export companies are a thing which simultaneously allowed Sweden to develop but which also brought enormous problems. The immigration madness of, 1990 to now is probably also a result of this alignment.
- mlrtime 1y ago
  And this is where the union threads die, every time. Top post is essentially saying Americans/SWE are dumb for not being in a union, then comparing to other countries. As soon as someone companies US SWE salaries to these union countries it falls apart quickly.
  - triceratops 1y ago
    So show us non-US countries without SWE labor unions that have high SWE salaries.

snaily 1y ago

If it is indeed easy to move operations wholesale, I think we would see far more and quicker cases (not just arbitraging differences in labor organization, but also e.g. tax and regulatory regimes). It certainly happens, mind you, but my read is that different forms of institutional inertia puts a damper on the willingness to "re-home".

Bombthecat 1y ago

Or close the location and just reopen later on. Story time: Berlin in Germany is pretty left leaning. So there was / is a MC Donalds which regularly formed union for employees, MC Donalds just closed the restaurant and reopened later, several times lol

autoexec 1y ago
Ideally there'd be laws against this, and public backlash as well. Even non-unionized Workers in Germany will be better off than their American counterparts, but they still deserve strong protections for unions.
wvbdmp 1y ago
I’m not familiar with that particular story, but it’s worth noting that there is a nationwide union for franchise restaurant workers called NGG. They negotiate standard wages with the franchise restaurant association BdS which all the big names adhere to (McDonald’s, Burger King, KFC, but also, for example, Starbucks). Your story sounds like it’s about a “Betriebsrat”, which represents workers within a specific workplace, complementary to wider unions.

brianmcc 1y ago

I don't think anyone's saying unions can do that? They can protect workers and provide some balance in the power dynamics, but there absolutely are limits.

autoexec 1y ago

It's not as if companies aren't shipping non-union jobs overseas or importing labor from overseas anyway. There's also a certain amount of irrational sentiment around silicon valley and the west coast generally. There's little doubt that companies could move shop to places in the US that aren't so insanely overpriced and without the high cost of living, especially with work from home being so popular, but for whatever reason (the weather, the "scene", the culture) companies are happy where they are and I don't expect that to change so quickly. It sure is nice having a lot of money and having a lot of nice options on where/how to spend it anyway, which might not always be the case in the overseas neighborhoods filled with unionless sweatshops.

raw_anon_1111 1y ago
This is very much an HN bubble sentiment. Most of the 2 million+ developers in the US aren’t anywhere near the west coast and are still making twice what they make in Europe working for boring old enterprises like Delta, Home Depot, Coca Cola etc. I am mentioning these three because I spent all of my career as enterprise dev working in Atlanta between 1996 anc 2020 and those are the well known enterprise companies. Choose any other major metro city in the US outside of the west coast and you will see the same.