8 ms·

Anecdotally, two factors at work here: - Schools have stopped educating in favor of test metrics, making sure the worst students pass, and pushing borderline i

by csense 11mo ago

Anecdotally, two factors at work here: - Schools have stopped educating in favor of test metrics, making sure the worst students pass, and pushing borderline indoctrination of controversial, left-ish values. - With remote education during the pandemic, people have more visibility into their school's day-to-day teaching. It's hard to fix the US education system by political means. If you have the ability to do so, it's comparatively much easier to pull your kids out and homeschool them.

mcphage 11mo ago
[flagged]
- jimmygrapes 11mo ago
  I expected this comment coming into the thread. I would just like to point out that there is a huge range of options between those two extremes! If is entirely possible to teach up a child to be curious AND well rounded in the basics (see also concepts of Trivarium and Quadrivium, sorry can't link the references atm).
  - mcphage 11mo ago
    > there is a huge range of options between those two extremes! Which two extremes would those be?
    - echelon_musk 11mo ago
      Presumably the extremes of left and right?
      - jen20 11mo ago
        (Which are, of course, far more similar than people that identify with either extreme would ever admit).
- binary132 11mo ago
  yeah, it would be crazy if people were allowed to raise their own children with their own values. we can’t have that.
  - patall 11mo ago
    Did anyone argue that you are not allowed to teach your kids your own values? It seems to me, the question is more: do you want to raise your kids without ever exposing them to values that are not your own? Opinion Bubbles have been increasing for a long time, do we really want to grow them even more? Social media is full of people left and right that seem to have no idea about the opinions and realities at the other end of the spectrum.
  - llbeansandrice 11mo ago
    Is this not possible while exposing children to a variety of view points from different sources or does it require that children are not exposed to certain perspectives at all? The original comment makes a very bold claim of "indoctrination" of an entirely undefined set of values. There has been no evidence that exposing children to this (undefined and buzzwordy) set of values means that they can't be raised according to other values. I find this idea pretty wild to encounter on HN which is generally focused on open source and widely available information so that people can educate themselves is suddenly gone in a puff of smoke and some buzzwords when talking about educating the most curious minds in the world. Define the values. Cite sources that this is "indoctrination" and not simply exposing viewpoints. Then maybe we can have a productive discussion.
    - ryandrake 11mo ago
      > Define the values. Cite sources that this is "indoctrination" and not simply exposing viewpoints. Then maybe we can have a productive discussion. They're never going to do this, because it's not actually happening, at least not to a significant degree. They will keep their wording vague, not show examples, and basically just repeat variations of "Trust me, bro.. this indoctrination is happening. It's clear as day. You need to see the real world, bro."
- nphardon 11mo ago
  The right has reduced left-ish values to like the basics of humanity; essentially if schools are not actively teaching hate then they are leftist. I don't think the U.S. really has a liberal / leftist culture at all compared to Europe.
biophysboy 11mo ago
Parents side with their kids all the time in pass/fail battles; they're not objective. Name the left values; don't beat around the bush. Observing remote education is not good visibility into pre-covid teaching. I think we have a responsibility to have educated citizens.
- pixxel 11mo ago
  [dead]
- broof 11mo ago
  One example is in high school I had an excellent literature class that also covered a lot of philosophy. It wasn’t until later that I realized that the various philosophies we studied were the philosophies that are often foundational for Marxism, atheism, and general left of center academia. Probably the best class I had in high school but I wish it had also covered things on both sides, or been more transparent that it was in fact biased.
  - AlotOfReading 11mo ago
    It's pretty hard to touch philosophy without covering marxism in some way. Very little of it has anything to do with the family of political ideologies despite sharing a similar name. The question of God's existence is also fundamental to the history of philosophy. It's not particularly shocking that a course might cover people like Lucretius, Bentham, or Russell. Most philosophy surveys will also include some of the other sides, which you might not even recognize as such. Descartes and Aquinas are fixtures, and Heidegger (notoriously conservative and also a literal Nazi) often features in university level classes. The point isn't to indoctrinate you with any of these viewpoints, it's to teach you how to analyze their arguments and think for yourself.
    - Izikiel43 11mo ago
      > It's pretty hard to touch philosophy without covering marxism in some way The complaint was that the alternative wasn't discussed.
ponooqjoqo 11mo ago
> pushing borderline indoctrination of controversial, left-ish values Which values? I haven't gone to school in a long time.
- squigz 11mo ago
  I'm very curious about this as well, GP, please.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- VohuMana 11mo ago
  I am very curious too, I’ve asked this to other friends who have mentioned the same thing and the only concrete answer I have got so far was teaching the theory of evolution and climate change.
  - MathMonkeyMan 11mo ago
    It's usually evolution or sex or race or something like that. One of my friends was home schooled. It was at least partly about religious values, but I think it was also partly about him being a bit of a strange kid and getting along better at home. He went back to public schools in middle school, and that was real rough but I think he was happy by the time he got to high school. I'm sure there are many reasons to home school, but the one I hear about most is religious.
- andrewmlevy 11mo ago
  Lots of examples, gender identity and requiring ethnic studies (focusing on white male privilege, settler/colonial, putting groups into binary oppressor/oppressed). Also issues with requiring those classes vs not.
  - voxl 11mo ago
    These are two indisputable facts about our world, if you disagree you are wrong and anti-science: 1. Gender is a social construct 2. Whiteness is a social construct and in particular has been used as a bludgeon against minority "non-whites" in the United States for a very long time If you do not believe these things you are the problem. You lack education. You lack critical thinking. You are brainwashed.
RandallBrown 11mo ago
> With remote education during the pandemic, people have more visibility into their school's day-to-day teaching I'm not sure remote schooling during the pandemic is very representative of day to day teaching in school. At least that's the impression I got from my teacher friends back then.
csb6 11mo ago
[flagged]
- SauntSolaire 11mo ago
  > In fact, several states will soon require displaying the 10 commandments in public school classrooms, which seems pretty “right-ish” to me. That tells you way more about the (current) politics of the local government than it does about the politics of the median teacher. It might actually indicate the opposite - no one would go to the effort of mandating pride flags at the school I went to, seeing as they were already hung in every single classroom.
  - csb6 11mo ago
    [flagged]
- Izikiel43 11mo ago
  Do privilege walks count? Which seem to foster victim mentality?
ilikecakeandpie 11mo ago
This is very anecdotal. Here in the south, the "controversial, left-ish values" would be a breath of fresh air vs what is being taught here > Schools have stopped educating in favor of test metrics, making sure the worst students pass This is no child left behind in action, which was implemented during W's term > With remote education during the pandemic, people have more visibility into their school's day-to-day teaching ^ This is the micromanagement that a ton of people claim to hate and get in their way on this site when folks are complaining about daily standups. IMO, if you're worried about the quality of your kid's education then you'll either need to send them to a private or home school, which will stunt them socially because life isn't just one big private school or home, or encourage curiosity and learning at home to supplement their rote learning from school
jrm4 11mo ago
I'm not sure how your first thing much factors in? I haven't seen any data but I'd be VERY surprised if e.g. a survey of homeschoolers would cite to a lot of "making bad students pass" and "lefty indoctrination."
jrm4 11mo ago
Another nebulous but I think VERY observable factor would be the extent to which "parents are, and expected to be, involved in their kids school stuff." Anecdotally, but I bet you see a lot of it, I can count on one, maybe two hands the number of times my parents went to anything at the school to see me do a thing. And for my kids, there's something just about every other week.
ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago
The other factor is not removing the bottom _% of hugely disruptive and violent children from schools.

by csense 11mo ago

mcphage 11mo ago

[flagged]

jimmygrapes 11mo ago
I expected this comment coming into the thread. I would just like to point out that there is a huge range of options between those two extremes! If is entirely possible to teach up a child to be curious AND well rounded in the basics (see also concepts of Trivarium and Quadrivium, sorry can't link the references atm).
- mcphage 11mo ago
  > there is a huge range of options between those two extremes! Which two extremes would those be?
  - echelon_musk 11mo ago
    Presumably the extremes of left and right?
    - jen20 11mo ago
      (Which are, of course, far more similar than people that identify with either extreme would ever admit).
binary132 11mo ago
yeah, it would be crazy if people were allowed to raise their own children with their own values. we can’t have that.
- patall 11mo ago
  Did anyone argue that you are not allowed to teach your kids your own values? It seems to me, the question is more: do you want to raise your kids without ever exposing them to values that are not your own? Opinion Bubbles have been increasing for a long time, do we really want to grow them even more? Social media is full of people left and right that seem to have no idea about the opinions and realities at the other end of the spectrum.
- llbeansandrice 11mo ago
  Is this not possible while exposing children to a variety of view points from different sources or does it require that children are not exposed to certain perspectives at all? The original comment makes a very bold claim of "indoctrination" of an entirely undefined set of values. There has been no evidence that exposing children to this (undefined and buzzwordy) set of values means that they can't be raised according to other values. I find this idea pretty wild to encounter on HN which is generally focused on open source and widely available information so that people can educate themselves is suddenly gone in a puff of smoke and some buzzwords when talking about educating the most curious minds in the world. Define the values. Cite sources that this is "indoctrination" and not simply exposing viewpoints. Then maybe we can have a productive discussion.
  - ryandrake 11mo ago
    > Define the values. Cite sources that this is "indoctrination" and not simply exposing viewpoints. Then maybe we can have a productive discussion. They're never going to do this, because it's not actually happening, at least not to a significant degree. They will keep their wording vague, not show examples, and basically just repeat variations of "Trust me, bro.. this indoctrination is happening. It's clear as day. You need to see the real world, bro."
nphardon 11mo ago
The right has reduced left-ish values to like the basics of humanity; essentially if schools are not actively teaching hate then they are leftist. I don't think the U.S. really has a liberal / leftist culture at all compared to Europe.

biophysboy 11mo ago

Parents side with their kids all the time in pass/fail battles; they're not objective. Name the left values; don't beat around the bush. Observing remote education is not good visibility into pre-covid teaching. I think we have a responsibility to have educated citizens.

pixxel 11mo ago
[dead]
broof 11mo ago
One example is in high school I had an excellent literature class that also covered a lot of philosophy. It wasn’t until later that I realized that the various philosophies we studied were the philosophies that are often foundational for Marxism, atheism, and general left of center academia. Probably the best class I had in high school but I wish it had also covered things on both sides, or been more transparent that it was in fact biased.
- AlotOfReading 11mo ago
  It's pretty hard to touch philosophy without covering marxism in some way. Very little of it has anything to do with the family of political ideologies despite sharing a similar name. The question of God's existence is also fundamental to the history of philosophy. It's not particularly shocking that a course might cover people like Lucretius, Bentham, or Russell. Most philosophy surveys will also include some of the other sides, which you might not even recognize as such. Descartes and Aquinas are fixtures, and Heidegger (notoriously conservative and also a literal Nazi) often features in university level classes. The point isn't to indoctrinate you with any of these viewpoints, it's to teach you how to analyze their arguments and think for yourself.
  - Izikiel43 11mo ago
    > It's pretty hard to touch philosophy without covering marxism in some way The complaint was that the alternative wasn't discussed.

ponooqjoqo 11mo ago

> pushing borderline indoctrination of controversial, left-ish values Which values? I haven't gone to school in a long time.

squigz 11mo ago
I'm very curious about this as well, GP, please.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
VohuMana 11mo ago
I am very curious too, I’ve asked this to other friends who have mentioned the same thing and the only concrete answer I have got so far was teaching the theory of evolution and climate change.
- MathMonkeyMan 11mo ago
  It's usually evolution or sex or race or something like that. One of my friends was home schooled. It was at least partly about religious values, but I think it was also partly about him being a bit of a strange kid and getting along better at home. He went back to public schools in middle school, and that was real rough but I think he was happy by the time he got to high school. I'm sure there are many reasons to home school, but the one I hear about most is religious.
andrewmlevy 11mo ago
Lots of examples, gender identity and requiring ethnic studies (focusing on white male privilege, settler/colonial, putting groups into binary oppressor/oppressed). Also issues with requiring those classes vs not.
- voxl 11mo ago
  These are two indisputable facts about our world, if you disagree you are wrong and anti-science: 1. Gender is a social construct 2. Whiteness is a social construct and in particular has been used as a bludgeon against minority "non-whites" in the United States for a very long time If you do not believe these things you are the problem. You lack education. You lack critical thinking. You are brainwashed.

RandallBrown 11mo ago

> With remote education during the pandemic, people have more visibility into their school's day-to-day teaching I'm not sure remote schooling during the pandemic is very representative of day to day teaching in school. At least that's the impression I got from my teacher friends back then.

csb6 11mo ago

[flagged]

SauntSolaire 11mo ago
> In fact, several states will soon require displaying the 10 commandments in public school classrooms, which seems pretty “right-ish” to me. That tells you way more about the (current) politics of the local government than it does about the politics of the median teacher. It might actually indicate the opposite - no one would go to the effort of mandating pride flags at the school I went to, seeing as they were already hung in every single classroom.
- csb6 11mo ago
  [flagged]
Izikiel43 11mo ago
Do privilege walks count? Which seem to foster victim mentality?

ilikecakeandpie 11mo ago

This is very anecdotal. Here in the south, the "controversial, left-ish values" would be a breath of fresh air vs what is being taught here > Schools have stopped educating in favor of test metrics, making sure the worst students pass This is no child left behind in action, which was implemented during W's term > With remote education during the pandemic, people have more visibility into their school's day-to-day teaching ^ This is the micromanagement that a ton of people claim to hate and get in their way on this site when folks are complaining about daily standups. IMO, if you're worried about the quality of your kid's education then you'll either need to send them to a private or home school, which will stunt them socially because life isn't just one big private school or home, or encourage curiosity and learning at home to supplement their rote learning from school

jrm4 11mo ago

I'm not sure how your first thing much factors in? I haven't seen any data but I'd be VERY surprised if e.g. a survey of homeschoolers would cite to a lot of "making bad students pass" and "lefty indoctrination."

jrm4 11mo ago

Another nebulous but I think VERY observable factor would be the extent to which "parents are, and expected to be, involved in their kids school stuff." Anecdotally, but I bet you see a lot of it, I can count on one, maybe two hands the number of times my parents went to anything at the school to see me do a thing. And for my kids, there's something just about every other week.

ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago

The other factor is not removing the bottom _% of hugely disruptive and violent children from schools.