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Tesla Robotaxi had 3 more crashes, now 7 total
- josefritzishere 11mo agoAre we sure this is a taxi and not a Dalek?
- elsjaako 11mo agoI had a discussion with a colleague today. He claimed Tesla had Full Self Driving, and had for years, and they were the first. That's the message some folks believe. I look forward to telling him about this.
- temperceve 11mo agoI've never understood why some people insist that FSD means there can never ever be any crashes of any kind, otherwise it obiviously just doesn't work.
- pu_pe 11mo agoIt needs human operators and still crashes 2x more than their competitor. And they have been calling it FSD for years now.
- elsjaako 11mo agoFor me FSD means they are legally allowed to operate it on a public road with no supervising driver. Obviously no crashes ever isn't expected. Even roller coasters have accidents sometimes. Tesla will get there I'm sure. But I know at least two people that are in Musks influence sphere that believe it to already be the case.
- temperceve 11mo agoI use FSD 99% of the time now and it works 99% of the time I use it. When it doesn't work, it is always in an annoying, going-way-to-slow way. I've never experienced it crash into anything. I'm sure the experts here know better than me, I'm just a lowly customer, but from MY experience, it basically works all the time.
- thatwasunusual 11mo ago> humans generally have a crash, whether they are at fault or not, every 700,000 miles. Tesla has 7 in probably ~300,000 miles This is the important part.
- poszlem 11mo agoExactly. I can accept those cars not being perfect, but I can’t accept them performing worse than human drivers.
- lnsru 11mo agoBut humans are operating under the conditions not feasible for those cars. There is winter start in Germany with rain turning to snow and blizzard with poor visibility plus ice on the road. Humans still drive, vision only system will fail in first minute.
- poszlem 11mo agoAnd that changes what I said in what way? If cars aren't as safe as people (including in those conditions), they shouldn't drive. But once they match us, waiting for them to be perfect is a waste of time.
- lnsru 11mo agoThat means, that accidents of humans happen anytime and everywhere. While robotaxis cause accidents in less harsh conditions making statistics not really comparable. On the other hand statistics say that most accidents happen in summer: https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/crashes-by-month/ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/crashes-b... My bad.
- JKCalhoun 11mo agoI guess I can't accept them not being perfect. Lacking accountability, they have a much higher bar in my mind to replace human drivers.
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- ants_everywhere 11mo agoIt seems like they should add lidar or radar. What is the argument for deliberately impoverishing the Tesla sensory input?
- cj 11mo agoThere was a time when saying this on HN would have gotten you downvoted into oblivion. People felt extremely strongly that everything should be possible with cameras. I wonder if that sentiment is changing.
- ants_everywhere 11mo agoEven if one believes everything should be possible with cameras, the goal posts are moving. Other automated vehicles use radar or lidar. Even if Tesla achieves fatality levels comparable with human drivers, other vehicles will outperform them. There's not going to be a great market for the most fatal automatic vehicle. It makes more sense to chase state of the art rather than the state of the median human.
- steveBK123 11mo agoAnd Tesla pumps don't even realize how poor the camera specs are on Tesla's for their "we don't need lidar/radar, all we need is vision" strategy. Front camera is sub-4K, the rest of the cameras are 1440p.. all of which are processed at 24fps. We are talking 10 year old iPhone specs here.
- Veserv 11mo agoThe cameras actually do not even meet minimum vision requirements required to hold a license in California and most other states. Here is one of my posts with a detailed breakdown and analysis: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43605034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43605034
- steveBK123 11mo agoIt's fascinating that FSD is driving real cars on public roads with FPS that most gamers would disdain. It's only a couple tons of moving metal, would could go wrong?
- robotswantdata 11mo agoHow many crashes per human Uber mile?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- atwrk 11mo agoHow many crashes per mile for Waymo etc. would be the more interesting metric - if the competition has better numbers there is no excuse for risking people's safety with inferior tech
- bryanlarsen 11mo agoThose numbers are readily available. https://waymo.com/safety/impact/ https://waymo.com/safety/impact/ 1 in 4 million, more than an order of magnitude better than Tesla.
- input_sh 11mo agoLast sentence in the article.
- JKCalhoun 11mo agoWhy not compare the numbers to bus, train or other mass-transit fatalities? I suppose because in the U.S. we are forever stuck in our car culture.
- lnsru 11mo agoI really don’t envy the supervisor’s job. Sitting there bored to death for weeks and waiting accident to happen. And when it happens you’re too bored and too tired to engage in timely manner. On the other hand… the not paid version of cruise control continuously fails in my two years old model Y. Realistically looking it’s to early to fantasize about robitaxis when simple phantom braking problem is not solved yet.
- steveBK123 11mo agoPhantom braking has been a huge issue since at least 2017, constant whack a mole release to release, really nuked my confidence in the product over time.
- neither_color 11mo agoThe unpaid version of cruise control/autopilot is actually a different software from the one that comes bundled with FSD. I actually think the semi-smart autopilot that comes bundled with FSD is better than FSD itself. I tried to get into FSD but I felt that it made me an obnoxious driver. Chill is too slow and makes unnecessary lane changes. Hurry makes too many unnecessary lane changes while speeding beyond the flow of traffic. When you encounter a "mormon roadblock", e.g two cars going the speed limit on a two lane road, FSD goes into a loop changing lanes back and forth hoping for an overtake that never comes. If you're the type of driver who picks his exit lane early because you know they're prone to jamming and drivers blocking each other later, FSD will still try to get out of the merge lane to pass, ditto for busy intersection queues. Removing the human driver makes one things SPECIFICALLY worse, and that is the ability to correct navigation errors and override sub-optimal routing. For example: there is one block on my commute where you can take either an uncontrolled left turn, or go up to a light. The difference is one block and the light is usually faster during rush hour because the uncontrolled turn takes forever to get a safe gap. Navigation always chooses the uncontrolled left to the point that you have to disengage. There's other quality of life issues too like wanting to approach your destination from the left or the right because you know the parking situation ahead of time. These can be communicated to a human driver. You can't explain that to Tesla FSD though. It's tapped into the car-machine-god hivemind and can't be bothered with instructions from mere mortals. But I digress, I think the paid, semi-smart autopilot is their best product. I can set an objective speed limit. It stops at stop signs and red lights automatically. It stays in its lane until I tap the blinker so it changes lane. It can autopark. These things actually augment my driving and reduce cognitive strain while driving, while keeping me just alert enough. FSD is all or nothing while requiring full non-interactive attention like a sentinel.
- ants_everywhere 11mo agoIf Tesla's robotaxis develop a reputation for accidents, they'll create an unpredictable traffic bubble around them. Some people will slow down to minimize the fatality of an impact and to increase reaction time (similar to people slowing down around a marked cop car). Others will speed up to ensure they don't get stuck behind or around one. That happens with other unsafe vehicles (e.g. a truck that doesn't have its load well secured). But it makes me wonder what will happen if Tesla trains on the data of erratic driving created by its presence.
- boudin 11mo agoI'm doing this with Tesla's on the road already. When I see one i'm extra-cautious. This company is so shaddy around all the driving assistance and FSD issues that i have 0 trust and will not until it is thoroughly investigated. They are quite behind other manufacturers on simple stuff like line assistance and automated breaking already, they are going out of their way to make every reported incident sounding that others are to blame, it just looks bad from end to end. Rushing those robotaxis is just trying to hide the fact that they are quite behind the competition on all those fronts.
- JKCalhoun 11mo ago"Honey, don't spook 'em!" (A thought that went through my head when the wife and I were recently driving in the Bay Area surrounded by Teslas, ha ha.)
- queenkjuul 11mo agoOn my last road trip i saw a Tesla go from 75 to 60 to 110 in the span of about 20 seconds then the driver pulled over and stopped and got out. No idea what the fuck happened there but I'm certainly giving them all a wide berth from now on. This was wide open road with almost no other other traffic in broad daylight.
- lordnacho 11mo ago> Unlike other companies reporting to NHTSA, Tesla abuses the right to redact data reported through the system. The automaker redacts the “narrative” for each reported crash, preventing the public from knowing how the crashes happened and who is responsible. This part seems pretty bad
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago> preventing the public from knowing So just assume the information looks really bad for Tesla.
- input_sh 11mo agoThey must've learned their lesson from Cruise, who got caught lying in these reports, lost its license to operate in California, stopped offering robotaxis nationwide, and GM divested from it.
- steveBK123 11mo agoFlagged in under 15 minutes, seems the fever has still not broken
- mahkeiro 11mo agoThe flagging system on HN is really not efficient and often abused.
- juancn 11mo agoBut how many miles driven? Severity? Is it worse or better than a human driver? With just a total number it's hard to reason about what it means.
- elsjaako 11mo agoFrom the article: >I expect a few because humans generally have a crash, whether they are at fault or not, every 700,000 miles. Tesla has 7 in probably ~300,000 miles, which should be worrying to anyone, whether the Robotaxis were responsible or not.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]