5 ms·

> it's important to recognize times when you had a near-miss, and still fix those root causes as well. I mentioned this principal to the traffic engineer when

> it's important to recognize times when you had a near-miss, and still fix those root causes as well. I mentioned this principal to the traffic engineer when someone almost crashed into me because of a large sign that blocked their view. The engineer looked into it and said the sight lines were within spec, but just barely, so they weren't going to do anything about it. Technically the person who almost hit me could have pulled up to where they had a good view, and looked both ways as they were supposed to, but that is relying on one layer of the cheese to fix a hole in another, to use your analogy.

kennethrc 11mo ago
Likewise with decorative hedges and other gardenwork; your post brought to mind this one hotel I stay regularly where a hedge is high enough and close enough to the exit that you have to nearly pull into the street to see if there's oncoming cars. I've mentioned to the FD that it's gonna get someone hurt one day, yet they've done nothing about it for years now.
- avidiax 11mo ago
  Send certified letters to the owner of the hedge and whatever government agency would enforce rules about road visibility. That puts them "on notice" legally, so that they can be held accountable for not enforcing their rules or taking precautions.
  - crote 11mo ago
    The problem is that they are legally doing nothing wrong. Everything is done according to the rules, so they can't be held accountable for not following them. After all, they are taking all reasonable precautions, what more could be expected of them? The fact that the situation on the ground isn't safe in practice is irrelevant to the law. Legally the hedge is doing everything, so the blame falls on the driver. At best a "tragic accident" will result in a "recommendation" to whatever board is responsible for the rules to review them.
    - bombcar 11mo ago
      All that applies for criminal cases, but if a civil lawsuit is started and evidence is presented to the jury that the parties being sued had been warned repeatedly that it would eventually occur, it can be quite spicy. Which is why if you want to be a bastard, you send it to the owners, the city, and both their insurance agencies.
      - ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago
        This is stupid. Unless you happen to be the one that crashes it won't be a factor at all.
        thaumasiotes 11mo ago
        Well, it could be; you can watch out for accidents at that intersection and offer to support a case arising from one. If your goal is to get the intersection fixed, this is a reasonable thing to do.
        ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago
        you think it's reasonable to have 24/7 surveillance and then case support to get a hedged trimmed?
        bombcar 11mo ago
        Discovery’s a bitch which is why they settle.
    - mrandish 11mo ago
      @Bombcar is correct. Once they've been legally notified of the potential issue, they have increased exposure to civil liability. Their lawyers and insurance company will strongly encourage them to just fix it (assuming it's not a huge cost to trim back the stupid hedge). A registered letter can create enough impetus to overcome organizational inertia. I've seen it happen.
loeg 11mo ago
People love to rag on Software Engineers for not being "real" engineers, whatever that means, but American "Traffic Engineers" are by far the bigger joke of a profession. No interest in defense in depth, safety, or tradeoffs. Only "maximize vehicular traffic flow speed."
- windows_hater_7 11mo ago
  In this case, being a "traffic engineer" with the ability to sign engineering plans means graduating from an ABET-accredited engineering program, passing both the Fundamentals of Engineering exam and the Principles & Practice of Engineering exam, being licensed as a professional engineer, and passing the Professional Traffic Operations Engineer exam. I think they do a little more than "maximize vehicular traffic flow."
  - loeg 11mo ago
    > I think they do a little more than "maximize vehicular traffic flow." You would be mistaken. Traffic engineers are responsible for far, far more deaths than software engineers.
  - rocqua 11mo ago
    Certifications prove that you studied, and are smart and or diligent enough to pass an exam. If those certifications try to teach you bad approaches. Then they don't help competence. In fact, they can get people stuck in bad approaches. Because it's what they have been Taught by the rigorous and unquestionable system. Especially when your job security comes from having those certifications, it becomes harder to say that the certifications teach wrong things. It seems quite likely from the outside that this is what happened to US traffic engineering. Specifically that they focus on making it safe to drive fast and with the extra point that safe only means safe for drivers. This isn't just based on judging their design outcomes to be bad. It's also in the data comparing the US to other countries. This is visible in vehicle deaths per Capita, but mostly in pedestrian deaths per Capita. Correcting for miles driven makes the vehicle deaths in the US merely high. But correcting for miles walked (not available data) likely pushes pedestrian deaths much higher. Which illustrates that a big part of the safety problem is prioritizing driving instead of encouraging and proyecting other modes of transportat. (And then still doing below average on driving safety)
Mawr 11mo ago
To be fair, there is no way to fix this in the general case—large vehicles and other objects may obstruct your view also. Therefore, you have to learn to be cognisant of line-of-sight blockers and to deal with them anyway. So for a not-terrible driver, the only problem that this presents is that they have to slow down. Not ideal, but not a safety issue per se. That we allow terrible drivers to drive is another matter...
- lmm 11mo ago
  > there is no way to fix this in the general case—large vehicles and other objects may obstruct your view also Vehicles are generally temporary. It is actually possible to ensure decent visibility at almost all junctions, as I found when I moved to my current country - it just takes a certain level of effort.
  - Mawr 11mo ago
    That's exactly the problem—vehicles may exist anywhere at any time and block arbitrary parts of your line-of-sight. That's why you have to learn to deal with it as a driver. That said, obviously care should be taken to limit occurrences of view limiting obstacles whenever possible, especially in areas frequented by unskilled traffic participants—so pedestrians, really. A straightforward example would be disallowing street parking within a few tens of metres of pedestrian crossings. Street parking in general is horrible, especially on quiet residential streets—kids may dart around them onto the street at full speed. The problem is not limited to large vehicles either. —————— Anyways, here are some examples of what I'm talking about: - Self-inflicted LOS issues by passing/filtering (motor)cyclists: https://youtu.be/qi6ithdYA_8?t=861 https://youtu.be/qi6ithdYA_8?t=861, https://youtu.be/TRPYfHzQSFw?t=644 https://youtu.be/TRPYfHzQSFw?t=644, https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=200 https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=200, https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=209 https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=209, https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=1083 https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=1083 - Cars obstructing view of an intersection: https://youtu.be/swmt44N9DJc?t=307 https://youtu.be/swmt44N9DJc?t=307, https://youtu.be/ejqpeFyqNz0?t=258 https://youtu.be/ejqpeFyqNz0?t=258, https://youtu.be/veLDLUXLrdQ?t=8 https://youtu.be/veLDLUXLrdQ?t=8, https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=109 https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=109, https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=1016 https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=1016, https://youtu.be/m8jk2H7a-BI?t=70 https://youtu.be/m8jk2H7a-BI?t=70, https://youtu.be/9tgMe3CurNE?t=558 https://youtu.be/9tgMe3CurNE?t=558, https://youtu.be/QCALZbDC_i0?t=172 https://youtu.be/QCALZbDC_i0?t=172 - Cars obstructing view of a pedestrian/cyclist crossing: https://youtu.be/axCAi7Cjh2g?t=12 https://youtu.be/axCAi7Cjh2g?t=12, https://youtu.be/MReD5mieJ1c?t=1071 https://youtu.be/MReD5mieJ1c?t=1071, https://youtu.be/14c-iwZUh9M?t=5 https://youtu.be/14c-iwZUh9M?t=5, https://youtu.be/Mzs0izUSoFo?t=14 https://youtu.be/Mzs0izUSoFo?t=14, https://youtu.be/vT7uI6EBQRM?t=238 https://youtu.be/vT7uI6EBQRM?t=238, https://youtu.be/O7UIACa35KY?t=366 https://youtu.be/O7UIACa35KY?t=366, https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IQHWUEPEwcg https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IQHWUEPEwcg, https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=551 https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=551 (watch the whole video, it's very instructive) - Pedestrian behavior around buses: https://youtu.be/oxN0tqO9cSk?t=8 https://youtu.be/oxN0tqO9cSk?t=8, https://youtu.be/03qTXV4aQKE?t=709 https://youtu.be/03qTXV4aQKE?t=709 —————— And counterexamples, showing proper driving: - Obstructed pedestrian crossing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThBjk-oFmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThBjk-oFmk (I said proper driving, not proper cycling) - Around a blind turn: https://youtu.be/86-qjb_m43A?t=294 https://youtu.be/86-qjb_m43A?t=294 - And to top it off, obstructed pedestrian crossing plus a bus: https://youtu.be/RpB4bx63qmg?t=439 https://youtu.be/RpB4bx63qmg?t=439 —————— As you can see, LOS issues can pop up anywhere and there is no way to "fix" it. You have to adjust your behavior accordingly. You can't drive "optimistically", assuming nothing's there just because you can't see it. That's like closing your eyes and flooring it. Can't see nothing, therefore nothing is there!

kennethrc 11mo ago

Likewise with decorative hedges and other gardenwork; your post brought to mind this one hotel I stay regularly where a hedge is high enough and close enough to the exit that you have to nearly pull into the street to see if there's oncoming cars. I've mentioned to the FD that it's gonna get someone hurt one day, yet they've done nothing about it for years now.

avidiax 11mo ago
Send certified letters to the owner of the hedge and whatever government agency would enforce rules about road visibility. That puts them "on notice" legally, so that they can be held accountable for not enforcing their rules or taking precautions.
- crote 11mo ago
  The problem is that they are legally doing nothing wrong. Everything is done according to the rules, so they can't be held accountable for not following them. After all, they are taking all reasonable precautions, what more could be expected of them? The fact that the situation on the ground isn't safe in practice is irrelevant to the law. Legally the hedge is doing everything, so the blame falls on the driver. At best a "tragic accident" will result in a "recommendation" to whatever board is responsible for the rules to review them.
  - bombcar 11mo ago
    All that applies for criminal cases, but if a civil lawsuit is started and evidence is presented to the jury that the parties being sued had been warned repeatedly that it would eventually occur, it can be quite spicy. Which is why if you want to be a bastard, you send it to the owners, the city, and both their insurance agencies.
    - ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago
      This is stupid. Unless you happen to be the one that crashes it won't be a factor at all.
      - thaumasiotes 11mo ago
        Well, it could be; you can watch out for accidents at that intersection and offer to support a case arising from one. If your goal is to get the intersection fixed, this is a reasonable thing to do.
        ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago
        you think it's reasonable to have 24/7 surveillance and then case support to get a hedged trimmed?
      - bombcar 11mo ago
        Discovery’s a bitch which is why they settle.
  - mrandish 11mo ago
    @Bombcar is correct. Once they've been legally notified of the potential issue, they have increased exposure to civil liability. Their lawyers and insurance company will strongly encourage them to just fix it (assuming it's not a huge cost to trim back the stupid hedge). A registered letter can create enough impetus to overcome organizational inertia. I've seen it happen.

loeg 11mo ago

People love to rag on Software Engineers for not being "real" engineers, whatever that means, but American "Traffic Engineers" are by far the bigger joke of a profession. No interest in defense in depth, safety, or tradeoffs. Only "maximize vehicular traffic flow speed."

windows_hater_7 11mo ago
In this case, being a "traffic engineer" with the ability to sign engineering plans means graduating from an ABET-accredited engineering program, passing both the Fundamentals of Engineering exam and the Principles & Practice of Engineering exam, being licensed as a professional engineer, and passing the Professional Traffic Operations Engineer exam. I think they do a little more than "maximize vehicular traffic flow."
- loeg 11mo ago
  > I think they do a little more than "maximize vehicular traffic flow." You would be mistaken. Traffic engineers are responsible for far, far more deaths than software engineers.
- rocqua 11mo ago
  Certifications prove that you studied, and are smart and or diligent enough to pass an exam. If those certifications try to teach you bad approaches. Then they don't help competence. In fact, they can get people stuck in bad approaches. Because it's what they have been Taught by the rigorous and unquestionable system. Especially when your job security comes from having those certifications, it becomes harder to say that the certifications teach wrong things. It seems quite likely from the outside that this is what happened to US traffic engineering. Specifically that they focus on making it safe to drive fast and with the extra point that safe only means safe for drivers. This isn't just based on judging their design outcomes to be bad. It's also in the data comparing the US to other countries. This is visible in vehicle deaths per Capita, but mostly in pedestrian deaths per Capita. Correcting for miles driven makes the vehicle deaths in the US merely high. But correcting for miles walked (not available data) likely pushes pedestrian deaths much higher. Which illustrates that a big part of the safety problem is prioritizing driving instead of encouraging and proyecting other modes of transportat. (And then still doing below average on driving safety)

Mawr 11mo ago

To be fair, there is no way to fix this in the general case—large vehicles and other objects may obstruct your view also. Therefore, you have to learn to be cognisant of line-of-sight blockers and to deal with them anyway. So for a not-terrible driver, the only problem that this presents is that they have to slow down. Not ideal, but not a safety issue per se. That we allow terrible drivers to drive is another matter...

lmm 11mo ago
> there is no way to fix this in the general case—large vehicles and other objects may obstruct your view also Vehicles are generally temporary. It is actually possible to ensure decent visibility at almost all junctions, as I found when I moved to my current country - it just takes a certain level of effort.
- Mawr 11mo ago
  That's exactly the problem—vehicles may exist anywhere at any time and block arbitrary parts of your line-of-sight. That's why you have to learn to deal with it as a driver. That said, obviously care should be taken to limit occurrences of view limiting obstacles whenever possible, especially in areas frequented by unskilled traffic participants—so pedestrians, really. A straightforward example would be disallowing street parking within a few tens of metres of pedestrian crossings. Street parking in general is horrible, especially on quiet residential streets—kids may dart around them onto the street at full speed. The problem is not limited to large vehicles either. —————— Anyways, here are some examples of what I'm talking about: - Self-inflicted LOS issues by passing/filtering (motor)cyclists: https://youtu.be/qi6ithdYA_8?t=861 https://youtu.be/qi6ithdYA_8?t=861, https://youtu.be/TRPYfHzQSFw?t=644 https://youtu.be/TRPYfHzQSFw?t=644, https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=200 https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=200, https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=209 https://youtu.be/WgaWwWUYX64?t=209, https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=1083 https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=1083 - Cars obstructing view of an intersection: https://youtu.be/swmt44N9DJc?t=307 https://youtu.be/swmt44N9DJc?t=307, https://youtu.be/ejqpeFyqNz0?t=258 https://youtu.be/ejqpeFyqNz0?t=258, https://youtu.be/veLDLUXLrdQ?t=8 https://youtu.be/veLDLUXLrdQ?t=8, https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=109 https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=109, https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=1016 https://youtu.be/q46XoynHTpM?t=1016, https://youtu.be/m8jk2H7a-BI?t=70 https://youtu.be/m8jk2H7a-BI?t=70, https://youtu.be/9tgMe3CurNE?t=558 https://youtu.be/9tgMe3CurNE?t=558, https://youtu.be/QCALZbDC_i0?t=172 https://youtu.be/QCALZbDC_i0?t=172 - Cars obstructing view of a pedestrian/cyclist crossing: https://youtu.be/axCAi7Cjh2g?t=12 https://youtu.be/axCAi7Cjh2g?t=12, https://youtu.be/MReD5mieJ1c?t=1071 https://youtu.be/MReD5mieJ1c?t=1071, https://youtu.be/14c-iwZUh9M?t=5 https://youtu.be/14c-iwZUh9M?t=5, https://youtu.be/Mzs0izUSoFo?t=14 https://youtu.be/Mzs0izUSoFo?t=14, https://youtu.be/vT7uI6EBQRM?t=238 https://youtu.be/vT7uI6EBQRM?t=238, https://youtu.be/O7UIACa35KY?t=366 https://youtu.be/O7UIACa35KY?t=366, https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IQHWUEPEwcg https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IQHWUEPEwcg, https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=551 https://youtu.be/vYrxbdhLEN0?t=551 (watch the whole video, it's very instructive) - Pedestrian behavior around buses: https://youtu.be/oxN0tqO9cSk?t=8 https://youtu.be/oxN0tqO9cSk?t=8, https://youtu.be/03qTXV4aQKE?t=709 https://youtu.be/03qTXV4aQKE?t=709 —————— And counterexamples, showing proper driving: - Obstructed pedestrian crossing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThBjk-oFmk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThBjk-oFmk (I said proper driving, not proper cycling) - Around a blind turn: https://youtu.be/86-qjb_m43A?t=294 https://youtu.be/86-qjb_m43A?t=294 - And to top it off, obstructed pedestrian crossing plus a bus: https://youtu.be/RpB4bx63qmg?t=439 https://youtu.be/RpB4bx63qmg?t=439 —————— As you can see, LOS issues can pop up anywhere and there is no way to "fix" it. You have to adjust your behavior accordingly. You can't drive "optimistically", assuming nothing's there just because you can't see it. That's like closing your eyes and flooring it. Can't see nothing, therefore nothing is there!