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I never played an Ultima game, but I remember that many years ago, there was a period where Ultima VII was commonly mentioned as "the best RPG of all time" by P

I never played an Ultima game, but I remember that many years ago, there was a period where Ultima VII was commonly mentioned as "the best RPG of all time" by PC players. Nowadays it seems Ultima is rarely talked about anymore compared to classic SNES RPGs like Final Fantasy VI, which came out two years later.

anthk 1y ago
The best RPG of all time should be either Ultima IV, Chrono Trigger+, that's it, with the Plus patch or Pokémon Crystal (a hacked ROM) with improving patches, such as: - all mons ingame - level cap - no trading - improved Battle Tower Ultima VII shines with the in-game simulation, but today Cataclysm DDA:Bright Nights curb-stomps U VII in that area. Pokémon, well, it's about battling with your favourite mons, the game story it's just a placeholder with nice Japanese pixelated vistas. Also, I'd put Slashem on par, too. Because it's damn silly and fun to raise a Samurai with Yakuza weapons, an anachronistic madness like the Discworld series (and OFC you have the Tourist role from the books too). More than strategy, Slashem/Nethack it's about lateral thinking and doing crazy stuff to advance into your goal. Throwing potions as weapons? Done. A Doppleganger Kung Fu monk doing DBZ-like attacks while using your Wand of Digging against rock based foes? OFC, done.
- cubefox 1y ago
  Another RPG that is praised a lot is Disco Elysium (2019). Though I guess this one is quite different from the ones you mentioned. "RPG" is a wide term.
aidenn0 1y ago
JRPG games like FF VI are far more accessible than the Ultima games. The Avatar trilogy (Ultimas IV, V, and VI) are essentially unplayable without having all the manuals and taking detailed notes[1]. Even doing that, they are quite hard. Nearly every single Final Fantasy game is easy to beat just by taking a bit of time to grind levels whenever you get stuck. There is a blogger who teaches a class on old games (I can't remember who) and Ultima IV was one that his students bounced off of immediately because they didn't read the manual cover-to-cover, which is a prerequisite for not being totally lost. 1: Or using a walkthrough, I guess, but IMO the main point of the Ultima games of this era was the sense of discovery.
- cubefox 1y ago
  I guess back in the day, PC RPGs like Ultima were more targeted toward high-IQ nerds, while JRPGs were targeted toward kids or more average adults. Nowadays RPGs are pretty much always as accessible as the JRPGs of old. Or more accessible, as even random encounters and turn-based combat are increasingly perceived as not streamlined enough. The question is whether the hand-holding approach makes certain types of games impossible now. For example, if an old RPG derived its appeal from executing successful note-taking, the game can't be made approachable by taking out the note-taking requirement (e.g. with automatic quest logs, quest markers, in-game hints etc) without removing the core of the gameplay. Though I'm sure there are many other clunky aspects that could be streamlined today without loss.
  - staticman2 1y ago
    Some of the earlier JRPGS were pretty unintuitive. Probably because the developers didn't really know what they were doing yet. Mother 1 doesn't give you any plot guidance on what to do and is insanely overly difficult due to poor balancing. I believe Phantasy Star 1 was designed to be played while using grap paper to map the dungeon. A modern re-release has the game do this for you automatically. Even in Playstation era games like Suikoden there's this problem where if you put the game aside for a week and return to it and forget where to go next there's often no way to re-show the dialogue telling you where to go and no quest log. Suikoden 2 makes you collect 108 characters for the good ending. You definetly would need to take notes to try to do this without a guide. But it's poorly designed because you can miss one of them due to RNG during a mandatory fight scene with no way to know this.
  - aidenn0 1y ago
    Many of the JRPGs that made it to the US were targeted for kids (or sometimes made easier when translated). A major influence on RPGs in Japan was Wizardry, which was probably even more popular in Japan than in the US. Influences from it can be seen in many early JRPGs. Dragon Quest was intentionally made simpler than Wizardry both to reach a wider audience and to be easily playable on the Famicom; it's probably the easiest of the first 3 DQ games still has some "hunt for the right square" puzzles.

anthk 1y ago

The best RPG of all time should be either Ultima IV, Chrono Trigger+, that's it, with the Plus patch or Pokémon Crystal (a hacked ROM) with improving patches, such as: - all mons ingame - level cap - no trading - improved Battle Tower Ultima VII shines with the in-game simulation, but today Cataclysm DDA:Bright Nights curb-stomps U VII in that area. Pokémon, well, it's about battling with your favourite mons, the game story it's just a placeholder with nice Japanese pixelated vistas. Also, I'd put Slashem on par, too. Because it's damn silly and fun to raise a Samurai with Yakuza weapons, an anachronistic madness like the Discworld series (and OFC you have the Tourist role from the books too). More than strategy, Slashem/Nethack it's about lateral thinking and doing crazy stuff to advance into your goal. Throwing potions as weapons? Done. A Doppleganger Kung Fu monk doing DBZ-like attacks while using your Wand of Digging against rock based foes? OFC, done.

cubefox 1y ago
Another RPG that is praised a lot is Disco Elysium (2019). Though I guess this one is quite different from the ones you mentioned. "RPG" is a wide term.

aidenn0 1y ago

JRPG games like FF VI are far more accessible than the Ultima games. The Avatar trilogy (Ultimas IV, V, and VI) are essentially unplayable without having all the manuals and taking detailed notes[1]. Even doing that, they are quite hard. Nearly every single Final Fantasy game is easy to beat just by taking a bit of time to grind levels whenever you get stuck. There is a blogger who teaches a class on old games (I can't remember who) and Ultima IV was one that his students bounced off of immediately because they didn't read the manual cover-to-cover, which is a prerequisite for not being totally lost. 1: Or using a walkthrough, I guess, but IMO the main point of the Ultima games of this era was the sense of discovery.

cubefox 1y ago
I guess back in the day, PC RPGs like Ultima were more targeted toward high-IQ nerds, while JRPGs were targeted toward kids or more average adults. Nowadays RPGs are pretty much always as accessible as the JRPGs of old. Or more accessible, as even random encounters and turn-based combat are increasingly perceived as not streamlined enough. The question is whether the hand-holding approach makes certain types of games impossible now. For example, if an old RPG derived its appeal from executing successful note-taking, the game can't be made approachable by taking out the note-taking requirement (e.g. with automatic quest logs, quest markers, in-game hints etc) without removing the core of the gameplay. Though I'm sure there are many other clunky aspects that could be streamlined today without loss.
- staticman2 1y ago
  Some of the earlier JRPGS were pretty unintuitive. Probably because the developers didn't really know what they were doing yet. Mother 1 doesn't give you any plot guidance on what to do and is insanely overly difficult due to poor balancing. I believe Phantasy Star 1 was designed to be played while using grap paper to map the dungeon. A modern re-release has the game do this for you automatically. Even in Playstation era games like Suikoden there's this problem where if you put the game aside for a week and return to it and forget where to go next there's often no way to re-show the dialogue telling you where to go and no quest log. Suikoden 2 makes you collect 108 characters for the good ending. You definetly would need to take notes to try to do this without a guide. But it's poorly designed because you can miss one of them due to RNG during a mandatory fight scene with no way to know this.
- aidenn0 1y ago
  Many of the JRPGs that made it to the US were targeted for kids (or sometimes made easier when translated). A major influence on RPGs in Japan was Wizardry, which was probably even more popular in Japan than in the US. Influences from it can be seen in many early JRPGs. Dragon Quest was intentionally made simpler than Wizardry both to reach a wider audience and to be easily playable on the Famicom; it's probably the easiest of the first 3 DQ games still has some "hunt for the right square" puzzles.