5 ms·

Citizenship in this country is not a right. Why is it important that we allow more people in from these other nations? Why is that a good thing?

piperswe 11mo ago
What did you do to earn your citizenship?
- sudjsbbs 11mo ago
  [dead]
- happytoexplain 11mo ago
  [flagged]
etchalon 11mo ago
Why not? Why is a bad thing?
- nis0s 11mo ago
  It’s not a bad thing per se, but democratic action can produce cultural shift to something that was previously considered outside of the scope of your country’s way of life. What matters is what you want to achieve as a country, a society, a community and so on. This is something groups of people have to decide for themselves, and the worst form of disagreement is violence. I am of the view that more than 10 countries in the world should be built on enlightenment ideals, have a rule of law, have systems and processes for providing a good quality of life, and have centers of education and productivity. I don’t think it’s reasonable that we should shift billions of people to live in a handful of nations via immigration. If that’s the overall plan, then nations where those people are immigrating from should just become vassal states.
- sudjsbbs 11mo ago
  It isn’t necessarily, but it’s currently used in the US to allow the wealthy to avoid investing in Americans. Instead of investing in Americans by lowering costs of necessities (food, housing, education, children) they chase short term profits for the benefits of shareholders (which is by and large the ultra rich). It’s much cheaper to import labor where the above costs were paid for by somebody else.
j4coh 11mo ago
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
- bill_joy_fanboy 11mo ago
  This is just a tired old emotional argument. It won't phase anyone who sees the results of modern immigration practices.
  - slater 11mo ago
    We get it, you don't like immigrants.
    - happytoexplain 11mo ago
      This sneering oversimplification pushes people away from generosity. It's ok to see and have emotions about the very real negative side of immigration. Lumping all those people in with the theoretical "just racist with no other rationale" crowd is harmful.
      - slater 11mo ago
        > generosity we tried being nice, reaching across the aisle, etc. and that got us Orange Man 2.0
        nebula8804 11mo ago
        No it didn't. Putting up a candidate that talked about the stars and the moonlight instead of real problems Americans have got you Orange Man 2.0. To think, that they played the same game they did with Hillary and thought they could get away with it should really get you angry with party leadership.
        happytoexplain 11mo ago
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
Arubis 11mo ago
Pragmatically: if you want to enforce the legality of a state-affirmed migration path, it has to be viable. Without a militarized border (which is impractical based on nation size and undesirable for fiscal and moral reasons) and a militarized interior (do you _like_ what ICE is becoming?), the best mitigation for illegal immigration is viable legal immigration. Fiscally: immigrants have above-average entrepreneurial tendencies. It doesn't take a lot of enterprise creations and resulting tax payment and job creation to offset a _lot_ of social service consumption. Inbound migration also is what keeps the US from having a net-shrinking population, which until we can get away from late-stage capitalism is a death knell for the economy. Morally and ethically: this is a nation of immigrants. If you claim to be a native, do you speak Navajo? Ute? "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
- bill_joy_fanboy 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Arubis 11mo ago
    It's not a poem that _I_ wrote. That would be silly. You don't have to share _my_ feelings. It's inscribed on a plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty and is taught in civics classes as a representation of American values. The idea is that, when you live in a society, you build upon a set of shared values and stories so that you can have something in common with your neighbor and something bigger than yourself to strive for. All that said, there's a reason that comes last on my list of reasons. If you and I agree on the shared story, the other stuff doesn't matter so much. If we don't, having pragmatic and fiscal reasons to get on the same page lets us at least stay rational in our discourse.
    - sudjsbbs 11mo ago
      > It's inscribed on a plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty and is taught in civics classes as a representation of American values It was created by an activist looking to further Jewish and Georgian causes in the late 19th century. Id argue she wasn’t pushing for American causes and sought to redefine them to include her groups. > The idea is that, when you live in a society, you build upon a set of shared values and stories so that you can have something in common with your neighbor and something bigger than yourself to strive for. This is a relatively new idea (the inscription you described above came after the Statue of Liberty). Civic nationalism does not work with the entire world as opposed to immigrants of European descent, as they do not generally share the individualist egalitarian mindset that is unique to the west. There’s ample evidence of this in the US, but the conversation usually devolves into racism accusations at that point.
raincom 11mo ago
It is not a right, for sure. However, there are historical reasons why they are county wide quotas. Before the 1965 INA (Hart-Celler Act, which JFK wanted), they had a national-origins quota system: each country's quota was based on the existing immigrant population of that national origin already in the United States, using data from the 1890 census. Because the U.S. population in 1890 was overwhelmingly from Northern and Western Europe (especially Protestants), this formula strongly favored those groups. Immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe was heavily restricted because most of them are Catholics. Once Catholics got political power, thanks to JFK, this is reformed in favor of what we see country based caps. The national-origins formula was explicitly designed to maintain the existing ethnic composition of the U.S.--in other words, preserve what policymakers at the time considered the “traditional” American demographic makeup.
- IAmBroom 11mo ago
  Fascinating, and thank you for this history.
- _DeadFred_ 11mo ago
  In fact it's the opposite. We used to have a system that promoted western european, and we decided to change that. So we split them up in a way that encourages diversity. People from populous nations think this isn't fare. American's think it is explicitly fair, that our system makes sure people from all over the world come and join us, not just immigration dominated by the highest populous countries. I understand the diversity is good, and that immigration can create that take. But I don't understand that 'immigration good, policies for diversity bad' take?
  - amanaplanacanal 11mo ago
    Policies encouraging diversity aren't necessarily good or bad on their own. It may be that it is time to readjust those quotas based on the current needs.
  - toast0 11mo ago
    > American's think it is explicitly fair, that our system makes sure people from all over the world come and join us, not just immigration dominated by the highest populous countries. I'm an American, and I don't understand how it is explicitly fair that India and China with areas of very large and populations of very large have the same immigration caps as Belize. Especially when something happens and Sudan becomes Sudan and South Sudan and the same people and the same area now have twice the cap; how is that explicitly fair? If India reorganized as the Union of Indian Republics (which I hope is not an offensive hypothetical name), where each state became a full country with an ISO-2 code and an ITU country code, would it be fair that each of the 36 member states have the same cap as any other country? Also, I'm not sure why the overall caps haven't changed since 1990. It feels like they should be indexed to something. I think this version of quotas/caps is better than the previous version, but that doesn't make it explicitly fair. I would be interested in knowing what the priority dates would look like if we adjusted the overall caps every ten years after the census to some percentage of overall US population (the 1990 cap was set at approximately 0.3%) or annually based on estimates works too, and also adjusting up the per country caps a bit too.
maxerickson 11mo ago
In the long run it seems likely enough that it will become mainstream that people don't have the right to enforce borders against others. Like the real long run, try to use your imagination.
- AnimalMuppet 11mo ago
  > In the long run it seems likely enough... Does it seem more likely than the alternative? If so, what is your argument that that is more likely?
bulbar 11mo ago
Idk about US, but in Europe we are in dire need of migration. The shortage in for example health care is acute and alarming, at least in Germany. Our cleaning women is just about to finish her three year training program. However she failed the final exam because of the complicated wording of the test. Her German is good enough but formal German is a different beast. She is allowed to redo the test a single time next week. If she passes, she will have an official German degree but has to leave the country because her visa is based on the training program. She then has to reapply for another visa to be allowed to reenter Germany. Completely dysfunctional in my opinion. The system should bring people in that will be a net positive for the country while filtering out criminals.
- modo_mario 11mo ago
  I think you just don't want to pay those professions adequately. Additionally I believe non eu migration on average hasn't been a net positive in various western european without even taking into account a load of externalities.
  - bulbar 10mo ago
    Why do you believe that it hasn't been a net positive? Talking about regular migration, not refugees, and it's quite difficult to migrate to Germany, the country makes sure that you are a net positive to at least the economics (everything else can't be measured on an individual basis).
    - modo_mario 10mo ago
      Because it hasn't been in the places where it was measured adequately with a similar makeup. And typically it's not even close. You can find papers on this from the netherlands (look up borderless welfare state, university of amsterdam), denmark, etc Certain demographic historically brought in to work(morocco, etc) cost on average few hundreds of thousands. This mostly trough abysmal employment statistics (the majority of non eu migrant women here in brussels is neither working nor looking for work, among men it's still >30%) and lower income employment which also costs the country on average. And this is despite a whole hosts of internationals that come in for the higher paying jobs at the international companies, etc.

piperswe 11mo ago

What did you do to earn your citizenship?

sudjsbbs 11mo ago
[dead]
happytoexplain 11mo ago
[flagged]

etchalon 11mo ago

Why not? Why is a bad thing?

nis0s 11mo ago
It’s not a bad thing per se, but democratic action can produce cultural shift to something that was previously considered outside of the scope of your country’s way of life. What matters is what you want to achieve as a country, a society, a community and so on. This is something groups of people have to decide for themselves, and the worst form of disagreement is violence. I am of the view that more than 10 countries in the world should be built on enlightenment ideals, have a rule of law, have systems and processes for providing a good quality of life, and have centers of education and productivity. I don’t think it’s reasonable that we should shift billions of people to live in a handful of nations via immigration. If that’s the overall plan, then nations where those people are immigrating from should just become vassal states.
sudjsbbs 11mo ago
It isn’t necessarily, but it’s currently used in the US to allow the wealthy to avoid investing in Americans. Instead of investing in Americans by lowering costs of necessities (food, housing, education, children) they chase short term profits for the benefits of shareholders (which is by and large the ultra rich). It’s much cheaper to import labor where the above costs were paid for by somebody else.

j4coh 11mo ago

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

bill_joy_fanboy 11mo ago
This is just a tired old emotional argument. It won't phase anyone who sees the results of modern immigration practices.
- slater 11mo ago
  We get it, you don't like immigrants.
  - happytoexplain 11mo ago
    This sneering oversimplification pushes people away from generosity. It's ok to see and have emotions about the very real negative side of immigration. Lumping all those people in with the theoretical "just racist with no other rationale" crowd is harmful.
    - slater 11mo ago
      > generosity we tried being nice, reaching across the aisle, etc. and that got us Orange Man 2.0
      - nebula8804 11mo ago
        No it didn't. Putting up a candidate that talked about the stars and the moonlight instead of real problems Americans have got you Orange Man 2.0. To think, that they played the same game they did with Hillary and thought they could get away with it should really get you angry with party leadership.
      - happytoexplain 11mo ago

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

Arubis 11mo ago

Pragmatically: if you want to enforce the legality of a state-affirmed migration path, it has to be viable. Without a militarized border (which is impractical based on nation size and undesirable for fiscal and moral reasons) and a militarized interior (do you _like_ what ICE is becoming?), the best mitigation for illegal immigration is viable legal immigration. Fiscally: immigrants have above-average entrepreneurial tendencies. It doesn't take a lot of enterprise creations and resulting tax payment and job creation to offset a _lot_ of social service consumption. Inbound migration also is what keeps the US from having a net-shrinking population, which until we can get away from late-stage capitalism is a death knell for the economy. Morally and ethically: this is a nation of immigrants. If you claim to be a native, do you speak Navajo? Ute? "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

bill_joy_fanboy 11mo ago
[flagged]
- Arubis 11mo ago
  It's not a poem that _I_ wrote. That would be silly. You don't have to share _my_ feelings. It's inscribed on a plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty and is taught in civics classes as a representation of American values. The idea is that, when you live in a society, you build upon a set of shared values and stories so that you can have something in common with your neighbor and something bigger than yourself to strive for. All that said, there's a reason that comes last on my list of reasons. If you and I agree on the shared story, the other stuff doesn't matter so much. If we don't, having pragmatic and fiscal reasons to get on the same page lets us at least stay rational in our discourse.
  - sudjsbbs 11mo ago
    > It's inscribed on a plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty and is taught in civics classes as a representation of American values It was created by an activist looking to further Jewish and Georgian causes in the late 19th century. Id argue she wasn’t pushing for American causes and sought to redefine them to include her groups. > The idea is that, when you live in a society, you build upon a set of shared values and stories so that you can have something in common with your neighbor and something bigger than yourself to strive for. This is a relatively new idea (the inscription you described above came after the Statue of Liberty). Civic nationalism does not work with the entire world as opposed to immigrants of European descent, as they do not generally share the individualist egalitarian mindset that is unique to the west. There’s ample evidence of this in the US, but the conversation usually devolves into racism accusations at that point.

raincom 11mo ago

It is not a right, for sure. However, there are historical reasons why they are county wide quotas. Before the 1965 INA (Hart-Celler Act, which JFK wanted), they had a national-origins quota system: each country's quota was based on the existing immigrant population of that national origin already in the United States, using data from the 1890 census. Because the U.S. population in 1890 was overwhelmingly from Northern and Western Europe (especially Protestants), this formula strongly favored those groups. Immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe was heavily restricted because most of them are Catholics. Once Catholics got political power, thanks to JFK, this is reformed in favor of what we see country based caps. The national-origins formula was explicitly designed to maintain the existing ethnic composition of the U.S.--in other words, preserve what policymakers at the time considered the “traditional” American demographic makeup.

IAmBroom 11mo ago
Fascinating, and thank you for this history.
_DeadFred_ 11mo ago
In fact it's the opposite. We used to have a system that promoted western european, and we decided to change that. So we split them up in a way that encourages diversity. People from populous nations think this isn't fare. American's think it is explicitly fair, that our system makes sure people from all over the world come and join us, not just immigration dominated by the highest populous countries. I understand the diversity is good, and that immigration can create that take. But I don't understand that 'immigration good, policies for diversity bad' take?
- amanaplanacanal 11mo ago
  Policies encouraging diversity aren't necessarily good or bad on their own. It may be that it is time to readjust those quotas based on the current needs.
- toast0 11mo ago
  > American's think it is explicitly fair, that our system makes sure people from all over the world come and join us, not just immigration dominated by the highest populous countries. I'm an American, and I don't understand how it is explicitly fair that India and China with areas of very large and populations of very large have the same immigration caps as Belize. Especially when something happens and Sudan becomes Sudan and South Sudan and the same people and the same area now have twice the cap; how is that explicitly fair? If India reorganized as the Union of Indian Republics (which I hope is not an offensive hypothetical name), where each state became a full country with an ISO-2 code and an ITU country code, would it be fair that each of the 36 member states have the same cap as any other country? Also, I'm not sure why the overall caps haven't changed since 1990. It feels like they should be indexed to something. I think this version of quotas/caps is better than the previous version, but that doesn't make it explicitly fair. I would be interested in knowing what the priority dates would look like if we adjusted the overall caps every ten years after the census to some percentage of overall US population (the 1990 cap was set at approximately 0.3%) or annually based on estimates works too, and also adjusting up the per country caps a bit too.

maxerickson 11mo ago

In the long run it seems likely enough that it will become mainstream that people don't have the right to enforce borders against others. Like the real long run, try to use your imagination.

AnimalMuppet 11mo ago
> In the long run it seems likely enough... Does it seem more likely than the alternative? If so, what is your argument that that is more likely?

bulbar 11mo ago

Idk about US, but in Europe we are in dire need of migration. The shortage in for example health care is acute and alarming, at least in Germany. Our cleaning women is just about to finish her three year training program. However she failed the final exam because of the complicated wording of the test. Her German is good enough but formal German is a different beast. She is allowed to redo the test a single time next week. If she passes, she will have an official German degree but has to leave the country because her visa is based on the training program. She then has to reapply for another visa to be allowed to reenter Germany. Completely dysfunctional in my opinion. The system should bring people in that will be a net positive for the country while filtering out criminals.

modo_mario 11mo ago
I think you just don't want to pay those professions adequately. Additionally I believe non eu migration on average hasn't been a net positive in various western european without even taking into account a load of externalities.
- bulbar 10mo ago
  Why do you believe that it hasn't been a net positive? Talking about regular migration, not refugees, and it's quite difficult to migrate to Germany, the country makes sure that you are a net positive to at least the economics (everything else can't be measured on an individual basis).
  - modo_mario 10mo ago
    Because it hasn't been in the places where it was measured adequately with a similar makeup. And typically it's not even close. You can find papers on this from the netherlands (look up borderless welfare state, university of amsterdam), denmark, etc Certain demographic historically brought in to work(morocco, etc) cost on average few hundreds of thousands. This mostly trough abysmal employment statistics (the majority of non eu migrant women here in brussels is neither working nor looking for work, among men it's still >30%) and lower income employment which also costs the country on average. And this is despite a whole hosts of internationals that come in for the higher paying jobs at the international companies, etc.