9 ms·

> According to the prevailing narrative in North Korea, the war was won by the communists and since then, the entire Korean peninsula has remained united under

by monooso 11mo ago

> According to the prevailing narrative in North Korea, the war was won by the communists and since then, the entire Korean peninsula has remained united under the rule of the Korean Workers’ Party. (Emphasis mine) TIL. Now I'm really curious how maintaining this fiction works (or doesn't) in practice.

hk1337 11mo ago
Clearly, we were thinking the same thing or along the same lines.
yostrovs 11mo ago
The book 1984 demonstrates how logical inconsistencies can exist and be believed in when you don't have much choice.
- s0sa 11mo ago
  And can in fact be a useful test of loyalty.
  - red-iron-pine 11mo ago
    said loyalty tests become a purity spiral, e.g. who can clap the loudest or cry the most for Dear Leader https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
    - IAmBroom 11mo ago
      By Vectron's claw! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTrzUuWlHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTrzUuWlHI
- cedilla 11mo ago
  It's a book, not a demonstration. In any case, North Koreans are not taught that South Korea is just like any other part of North Korea. The idea that the North Korean people and leadership are all buffoons who make the weirdest of lies possible is already Orwellian enough.
  - FridayoLeary 11mo ago
    Well they do don't they? I read a couple of books about life in the soviet union. 1984 is satire, but it's not so far off from what reality was.
ch_123 11mo ago
I'm also curious given the rhetoric that the North Korean media has about the "puppet" state in the south. I can understand that the North Koreans want to claim sovereignty over the whole peninsula, but the article makes it sound like North Korea pretends that the ROK does not exist.
- the_af 11mo ago
  This is easy to resolve: North Korea doesn't believe it has control over the South. The article is simply wrong, a variant of the trope of "those crazy North Koreans believe all sorts of things". They believe there's only one Korea, artificially split in two by their enemies, and that it should all be under the control of the current NK government, but they don't believe they control all of it now.
- the_gipsy 11mo ago
  Isn't it widely known everywhere in the world that SK is a total puppet government of the USA?
strathmeyer 11mo ago
[dead]
vkou 11mo ago
> TIL. Now I'm really curious how maintaining this fiction works (or doesn't) in practice. Very easily. There's an official account, which 'everyone'[1] knows is bullshit, but if you try to assert any logical consequences of it, you will immediately out yourself as a malcontent, and will get into serious trouble. (Because despite having all sorts of constitutional protections for your rights on paper, the executive has the power in practice to do anything it wants to you at any time, with no redress. Good luck exercising articles 67 through 79 of that constitution. If you're lucky, you'll be softly told to sit down and shut up. If you're unlucky, you'll be doing a few years in a camp.) It's the time-tested playbook that every authoritarian regime follows, and if you're interested in learning more about how it works in practice, just turn on Fox News. It's got the first half of the double-think process down, and is working hard on getting us to the second half. There is always a thin public justification for why rights don't apply to the enemies of the state, which is enough to convince ~half the country. (Because ~half of any country will happily accept whatever atrocities its leaders do. You can observe that sort of thing on this very forum.) --- [1] Not actually everyone, some people really are that fucking stupid, but most know there's something off[2] about it. [2] In this particular case, the official Atlas says they are one country, but the country's Constitution (updated last year on this very subject) says that the ROK is a foreign, hostile state. Anyone who can read or has eyes to see and ears to hear should easily be able to tell that the latter is the more accurate one.
- red-iron-pine 11mo ago
  > You can observe that sort of thing on this very forum. remember that 1) this forum skews to a very specific sort of person, and 2) that person notwithstanding, there is an incredible, shocking large amount of bots active here, owing to the fact that the people from 1) are also AI worshipping futurists (and/or techno-fascists)
  - cassepipe 11mo ago
    Hi ! I am not a AI worshiping futurist nor a (techno-)fascist for that matter. I don't think bots are that active on such a small platform but I guess by "bots" you mean people who offer pushback on your opinions (they are a "shocking" number indeed, it seems I can hardly convince more than one person to rally my positions from time to time and I still have to pretend to be nuanced !) I also believe that "platform is skewed against X" (generally your own opinions) are utterly useless comments. You are just pretending everyone is against you so you don't have to take criticism addressed to you seriously. Now you can enjoy the ego boost of feeling like the virtuous online warrior against a world of techno-fascists that are ganging up on you or you can reflect and try to take into account the fact that people have different viewpoints and are mostly doing their best. I eventually chose the latter and I have to say I feel less grandiose but much better overall. Join the club, we have cookies.
ceejayoz 11mo ago
I mean, see American politics for a similar example. The Epstein files are simultaneously a "Democrat hoax" and full of prominent Dems. The Attorney General both has them on her desk, and they don't exist.
- Volundr 11mo ago
  And there's not enough in them to charge or investigate any 3rd parties, until some are made public and now there's enough to investigate Democrats.
  - Terr_ 11mo ago
    And suddenly the unimportant records that don't exist but were also a hoax but also implicate the-other-guy are about to be made public... suddenly an "ongoing investigation" is the new excuse. > The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between the true and the false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist. -- The origins of Totalitarianism (1951), by Hannah Arendt
sunaookami 11mo ago
Is the second part actually true though? I can't find any sources about this, in fact the opposite seems to be true. North Korea recently changed their constitution and describe South Korea as a "hostile state" which means they officially recognize it as a "state" at least[1]. Before that they explicitly had a goal for unification in the constitution which implies (or can be implied) that there never was such a view that "the entire Korean peninsula has remained united under the rule of the Korean Workers’ Party". There is also this sentence: >This North Korean world map is centred on the Pacific Ocean, which gives Korea a privileged position on the global stage This is normal for asian maps, Japan does the same thing for example. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/north-korea-reports-road-rail-links-cut-off-with-hostile-state-south-korea-kcna-2024-10-16/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/north-korea-repor...
- recursivecaveat 11mo ago
  Yeah, I'm kindof skeptical. Another example I found was Kim referencing the south in a TV speech. I think their official position might be something closer to that the war was victorious by virtue of holding off the Americans and/or removing them from the area. Then the atlas doesn't show the south as a separate country because it's more of a Taiwan situation where they don't want to legitimize it as anything more than a rebellious province? At least in the early 2000s when this atlas was made. The language at the time definitely seems to emphasize that the whole peninsula is just "the nation": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_15th_North%E2%80%93South_Joint_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_15th_North%E2%80%93South_...
- quicklime 11mo ago
  >> This North Korean world map is centred on the Pacific Ocean, which gives Korea a privileged position on the global stage > This is normal for asian maps, Japan does the same thing for example. This is common in Australia too.
  - bad_haircut72 11mo ago
    As a map of Australia sure but not a world map

by monooso 11mo ago

hk1337 11mo ago

Clearly, we were thinking the same thing or along the same lines.

yostrovs 11mo ago

The book 1984 demonstrates how logical inconsistencies can exist and be believed in when you don't have much choice.

s0sa 11mo ago
And can in fact be a useful test of loyalty.
- red-iron-pine 11mo ago
  said loyalty tests become a purity spiral, e.g. who can clap the loudest or cry the most for Dear Leader https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
  - IAmBroom 11mo ago
    By Vectron's claw! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTrzUuWlHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTrzUuWlHI
cedilla 11mo ago
It's a book, not a demonstration. In any case, North Koreans are not taught that South Korea is just like any other part of North Korea. The idea that the North Korean people and leadership are all buffoons who make the weirdest of lies possible is already Orwellian enough.
- FridayoLeary 11mo ago
  Well they do don't they? I read a couple of books about life in the soviet union. 1984 is satire, but it's not so far off from what reality was.

ch_123 11mo ago

I'm also curious given the rhetoric that the North Korean media has about the "puppet" state in the south. I can understand that the North Koreans want to claim sovereignty over the whole peninsula, but the article makes it sound like North Korea pretends that the ROK does not exist.

the_af 11mo ago
This is easy to resolve: North Korea doesn't believe it has control over the South. The article is simply wrong, a variant of the trope of "those crazy North Koreans believe all sorts of things". They believe there's only one Korea, artificially split in two by their enemies, and that it should all be under the control of the current NK government, but they don't believe they control all of it now.
the_gipsy 11mo ago
Isn't it widely known everywhere in the world that SK is a total puppet government of the USA?

strathmeyer 11mo ago

[dead]

vkou 11mo ago

> TIL. Now I'm really curious how maintaining this fiction works (or doesn't) in practice. Very easily. There's an official account, which 'everyone'[1] knows is bullshit, but if you try to assert any logical consequences of it, you will immediately out yourself as a malcontent, and will get into serious trouble. (Because despite having all sorts of constitutional protections for your rights on paper, the executive has the power in practice to do anything it wants to you at any time, with no redress. Good luck exercising articles 67 through 79 of that constitution. If you're lucky, you'll be softly told to sit down and shut up. If you're unlucky, you'll be doing a few years in a camp.) It's the time-tested playbook that every authoritarian regime follows, and if you're interested in learning more about how it works in practice, just turn on Fox News. It's got the first half of the double-think process down, and is working hard on getting us to the second half. There is always a thin public justification for why rights don't apply to the enemies of the state, which is enough to convince ~half the country. (Because ~half of any country will happily accept whatever atrocities its leaders do. You can observe that sort of thing on this very forum.) --- [1] Not actually everyone, some people really are that fucking stupid, but most know there's something off[2] about it. [2] In this particular case, the official Atlas says they are one country, but the country's Constitution (updated last year on this very subject) says that the ROK is a foreign, hostile state. Anyone who can read or has eyes to see and ears to hear should easily be able to tell that the latter is the more accurate one.

red-iron-pine 11mo ago
> You can observe that sort of thing on this very forum. remember that 1) this forum skews to a very specific sort of person, and 2) that person notwithstanding, there is an incredible, shocking large amount of bots active here, owing to the fact that the people from 1) are also AI worshipping futurists (and/or techno-fascists)
- cassepipe 11mo ago
  Hi ! I am not a AI worshiping futurist nor a (techno-)fascist for that matter. I don't think bots are that active on such a small platform but I guess by "bots" you mean people who offer pushback on your opinions (they are a "shocking" number indeed, it seems I can hardly convince more than one person to rally my positions from time to time and I still have to pretend to be nuanced !) I also believe that "platform is skewed against X" (generally your own opinions) are utterly useless comments. You are just pretending everyone is against you so you don't have to take criticism addressed to you seriously. Now you can enjoy the ego boost of feeling like the virtuous online warrior against a world of techno-fascists that are ganging up on you or you can reflect and try to take into account the fact that people have different viewpoints and are mostly doing their best. I eventually chose the latter and I have to say I feel less grandiose but much better overall. Join the club, we have cookies.

ceejayoz 11mo ago

I mean, see American politics for a similar example. The Epstein files are simultaneously a "Democrat hoax" and full of prominent Dems. The Attorney General both has them on her desk, and they don't exist.

Volundr 11mo ago
And there's not enough in them to charge or investigate any 3rd parties, until some are made public and now there's enough to investigate Democrats.
- Terr_ 11mo ago
  And suddenly the unimportant records that don't exist but were also a hoax but also implicate the-other-guy are about to be made public... suddenly an "ongoing investigation" is the new excuse. > The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between the true and the false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist. -- The origins of Totalitarianism (1951), by Hannah Arendt

sunaookami 11mo ago

Is the second part actually true though? I can't find any sources about this, in fact the opposite seems to be true. North Korea recently changed their constitution and describe South Korea as a "hostile state" which means they officially recognize it as a "state" at least[1]. Before that they explicitly had a goal for unification in the constitution which implies (or can be implied) that there never was such a view that "the entire Korean peninsula has remained united under the rule of the Korean Workers’ Party". There is also this sentence: >This North Korean world map is centred on the Pacific Ocean, which gives Korea a privileged position on the global stage This is normal for asian maps, Japan does the same thing for example. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/north-korea-reports-road-rail-links-cut-off-with-hostile-state-south-korea-kcna-2024-10-16/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/north-korea-repor...

recursivecaveat 11mo ago
Yeah, I'm kindof skeptical. Another example I found was Kim referencing the south in a TV speech. I think their official position might be something closer to that the war was victorious by virtue of holding off the Americans and/or removing them from the area. Then the atlas doesn't show the south as a separate country because it's more of a Taiwan situation where they don't want to legitimize it as anything more than a rebellious province? At least in the early 2000s when this atlas was made. The language at the time definitely seems to emphasize that the whole peninsula is just "the nation": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_15th_North%E2%80%93South_Joint_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_15th_North%E2%80%93South_...
quicklime 11mo ago
>> This North Korean world map is centred on the Pacific Ocean, which gives Korea a privileged position on the global stage > This is normal for asian maps, Japan does the same thing for example. This is common in Australia too.
- bad_haircut72 11mo ago
  As a map of Australia sure but not a world map