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This is great news. I look forward to a day when I never have to talk to a salesperson again. > Forty-eight states have laws that limit or ban manufacturers f

This is great news. I look forward to a day when I never have to talk to a salesperson again. > Forty-eight states have laws that limit or ban manufacturers from selling vehicles directly to consumers Why on earth is this a law? (I mean besides the obvious lobbying efforts and likely scare-mongering from powerful auto dealers) Is there an actual reason/benefit for this though for consumers?

everdrive 1y ago
>(I mean besides the obvious lobbying efforts and likely scare-mongering from powerful auto dealers) This is the only reason so far as I understand it.
- lordnacho 1y ago
  You'd think Amazon would apply lobbying power to enable new car sales?
  - s1mplicissimus 1y ago
    I would never expect amazon to perform any unethical behavior at all, because amazon is an honorable company
ortusdux 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
Kirby64 1y ago
These laws are anachronisms back when they didn’t want manufacturers directly selling vehicles to consumers because there was a fear (or maybe, an experience?) with manufacturers selling vehicles without any reasonable ability to get parts, repairs, etc. Nowadays with nationwide fast shipping and the internet these aren’t really problems… but in the 1950s I could see how there would be some benefits to having a dealership near you.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  It was more protection for local dealers, to avoid the manufacturer coming in to a market that the dealer had developed and undercutting them.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    Yes, but that's the first layer. The second layer is "Why would we care about undercutting local dealers"? And there are good reasons to avoid undercutting, not just greed, as is often the case.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      Do you think there still are, or just were?
      - SoftTalker 1y ago
        I think Ford would be happy to sell a car direct and pocket at least some of the commission they otherwise pay to the dealership. But they sort of need dealers also, to do local marketing, help customers who want hand-holding, and to provide warranty/recall service.
    - ch4s3 1y ago
      They were merely well organized and. connected to state legislatures. It's just regulatory capture.
    - dh2022 1y ago
      In my view if the local dealers will go to hell in a hand basket I won’t shed a tear. Michael’s Subaru of Bellevue couldn’t tighten some gasket under the car and my car was leaking oil after the oil change. When I took the car to the dealership they said it was because of my car being too old (older Subarus have indeed a problem with oil leaks). The guy behind the counter looked like he had anger management problems with my request to take another look. So yeah, if Amazon will put these dealerships out of business - good riddance.
BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
> Why on earth is this a law? Generously, protecting local labor is important in an environment that demands labor for survival and where considering alternative systems of providing for people is verboten. This is a confederation-level version of protections against offshoring jobs. Whether the jobs add value or not is its own dilemma.
Arainach 1y ago
Vertical integration is, in general, bad for competition and often bad for consumers. There can be benefits, but too much control limits availability of parts, confuses incentives, etc.
- zer00eyz 1y ago
  > Vertical integration is, in general, bad for competition and often bad for consumers. This is a gross misunderstanding of what vertical integration is. YKK zippers makes an unbeatable product because of vertical integration. A lack of vertical integration means that you're subject to the whims of larger markets (and increased interest and costs at every step). The flip side to this is "control nothing". Buy the building your office is in and own an asset, or get a triple net lease and then pay margin on top of that. Own your own hardware or pay AWS to have 30percent profit margins...
  - pessimizer 1y ago
    > YKK zippers makes an unbeatable product because of vertical integration. YKK zippers make an unbeatable product because they are a monopoly.
    - verall 1y ago
      A monopoly in the market for YKK branded zippers? One can buy zippers from lots of different manufacturers.
    - zer00eyz 1y ago
      https://idealfastener.com/zippers/ https://idealfastener.com/zippers/ Also makes great zippers. They are more vertically integrated than most of their other competitors.
  - Arainach 1y ago
    (Potentially) making a better product does not mean better for a consumer, especially when a company has a dominant share of the marketplace. It potentially means you can only get parts going through the company that sells the complete product. It potentially means that you have to pay whatever price the company sets because they control the distribution pipeline.
ceejayoz 1y ago
> Why on earth is this a law? Car dealerships tend to be keystone businesses in towns; they wind up with outsized political power on the state and local level.
- scrumper 1y ago
  It stems from franchise law which exists to give franchisees a modicum of protection from adverse practices by the much stronger party in the relationship.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    I'm sure that's a part of it, but I'm of the opinion that car dealers and other really local business owners like them are the modern equivalent of the landed gentry. Locally powerful people can have a lot of leverage, even against a much bigger national-level entity.
dragonwriter 1y ago
They were adopted in the mid-20th Century when franchised dealers the norm but manyfacturers would use threat (backed by follow-through if the threat wasn’t successful) of opening direct competing manufacturer-owned dealerships to coerce franchise dealers practices, to take that practice off the table.
cvoss 1y ago
It's true of beer, too. In a lot of states (decreasingly so), breweries cannot sell beer directly to consumers, or even retailers. I once paid for a tour of a brewery, where the price of admission also covered a souvenir glass. The brewery would then give you a few pours of "free beer". They emphasized that they were definitely not selling me any beer.
imglorp 1y ago
> Starting today, customers can browse, finance, and purchase certified pre-owned Ford vehicles online through Amazon Autos, with in-person pickup at a local Ford dealership. This whole thing sounds like dealership with extra steps and a middleman fee.
- dawnerd 1y ago
  Would love to see how much pressure is put onto purchasing addons from the local dealers. I remember reading people running into that when picking up their Lightnings.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    "We had us a deal here for nine-teen-five. You sat there and darned if you didn't tell me you'd get this car, these options, without the sealant, for nine-teen-five!" "Yeah but that TruCoat.... Lemme talk to my boss..."
rdtsc 1y ago
Wonder if there an opportunity there to set up distribution in the few states that don't have that law and make everything easy online - out of state registration, delivery (for a fee). The dealerships in the 48 states will probably sue the manufacturers, they are not just going to let it slide, I suspect.
geodel 1y ago
Agree. Dealing with Amazon customer support is such a great experience and it keeps on improving every time I reach out to them.
- apparent 1y ago
  I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. I remember when their customer service was truly great, about 20 years ago. Now it is not great, but still much better than car dealers, IMO.
- rchaud 1y ago
  When did you last use their support? 15 years ago, I needed to click 1 button to chat with support instantly about a faulty iPod I bought. They issued a refund and return mail label instantly. 3 months ago, I had to navigate multiple froms and dropdowns to even reach a chat representative. And when I did, they had none of the information I spent several minutes filling out. The rep then grilled me about my order, seemingly incredulous that Amazon had sent me a "new" product that was clearly used and repackaged when I opened it (this has been common for years as Amazon commingles its own stock with that of 3rd party sellers).
  - apparent 1y ago
    FWIW I find Amazon's phone support to be faster than the chat stuff. It's usually just a couple mins, most of which time you're on hold while they're fixing it. My wife hates dealing with returns, but I find that it's usually no big deal, and often they'll give you $5 or $10 for your trouble, if things don't get sorted out the first time (which seems to be about 10% of the time).
  - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
    ? I've returned two items from Amazon in the last year and in both cases, all I had to do was click on the "Return" button and drop it off at my local UPS Store. Why did you need to talk to support?
    - rchaud 1y ago

everdrive 1y ago

>(I mean besides the obvious lobbying efforts and likely scare-mongering from powerful auto dealers) This is the only reason so far as I understand it.

lordnacho 1y ago
You'd think Amazon would apply lobbying power to enable new car sales?
- s1mplicissimus 1y ago
  I would never expect amazon to perform any unethical behavior at all, because amazon is an honorable company

ortusdux 1y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

Kirby64 1y ago

These laws are anachronisms back when they didn’t want manufacturers directly selling vehicles to consumers because there was a fear (or maybe, an experience?) with manufacturers selling vehicles without any reasonable ability to get parts, repairs, etc. Nowadays with nationwide fast shipping and the internet these aren’t really problems… but in the 1950s I could see how there would be some benefits to having a dealership near you.

SoftTalker 1y ago
It was more protection for local dealers, to avoid the manufacturer coming in to a market that the dealer had developed and undercutting them.
- jvanderbot 1y ago
  Yes, but that's the first layer. The second layer is "Why would we care about undercutting local dealers"? And there are good reasons to avoid undercutting, not just greed, as is often the case.
  - freedomben 1y ago
    Do you think there still are, or just were?
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      I think Ford would be happy to sell a car direct and pocket at least some of the commission they otherwise pay to the dealership. But they sort of need dealers also, to do local marketing, help customers who want hand-holding, and to provide warranty/recall service.
  - ch4s3 1y ago
    They were merely well organized and. connected to state legislatures. It's just regulatory capture.
  - dh2022 1y ago
    In my view if the local dealers will go to hell in a hand basket I won’t shed a tear. Michael’s Subaru of Bellevue couldn’t tighten some gasket under the car and my car was leaking oil after the oil change. When I took the car to the dealership they said it was because of my car being too old (older Subarus have indeed a problem with oil leaks). The guy behind the counter looked like he had anger management problems with my request to take another look. So yeah, if Amazon will put these dealerships out of business - good riddance.

BugsJustFindMe 1y ago

> Why on earth is this a law? Generously, protecting local labor is important in an environment that demands labor for survival and where considering alternative systems of providing for people is verboten. This is a confederation-level version of protections against offshoring jobs. Whether the jobs add value or not is its own dilemma.

Arainach 1y ago

Vertical integration is, in general, bad for competition and often bad for consumers. There can be benefits, but too much control limits availability of parts, confuses incentives, etc.

zer00eyz 1y ago
> Vertical integration is, in general, bad for competition and often bad for consumers. This is a gross misunderstanding of what vertical integration is. YKK zippers makes an unbeatable product because of vertical integration. A lack of vertical integration means that you're subject to the whims of larger markets (and increased interest and costs at every step). The flip side to this is "control nothing". Buy the building your office is in and own an asset, or get a triple net lease and then pay margin on top of that. Own your own hardware or pay AWS to have 30percent profit margins...
- pessimizer 1y ago
  > YKK zippers makes an unbeatable product because of vertical integration. YKK zippers make an unbeatable product because they are a monopoly.
  - verall 1y ago
    A monopoly in the market for YKK branded zippers? One can buy zippers from lots of different manufacturers.
  - zer00eyz 1y ago
    https://idealfastener.com/zippers/ https://idealfastener.com/zippers/ Also makes great zippers. They are more vertically integrated than most of their other competitors.
- Arainach 1y ago
  (Potentially) making a better product does not mean better for a consumer, especially when a company has a dominant share of the marketplace. It potentially means you can only get parts going through the company that sells the complete product. It potentially means that you have to pay whatever price the company sets because they control the distribution pipeline.

ceejayoz 1y ago

> Why on earth is this a law? Car dealerships tend to be keystone businesses in towns; they wind up with outsized political power on the state and local level.

scrumper 1y ago
It stems from franchise law which exists to give franchisees a modicum of protection from adverse practices by the much stronger party in the relationship.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  I'm sure that's a part of it, but I'm of the opinion that car dealers and other really local business owners like them are the modern equivalent of the landed gentry. Locally powerful people can have a lot of leverage, even against a much bigger national-level entity.

dragonwriter 1y ago

They were adopted in the mid-20th Century when franchised dealers the norm but manyfacturers would use threat (backed by follow-through if the threat wasn’t successful) of opening direct competing manufacturer-owned dealerships to coerce franchise dealers practices, to take that practice off the table.

cvoss 1y ago

It's true of beer, too. In a lot of states (decreasingly so), breweries cannot sell beer directly to consumers, or even retailers. I once paid for a tour of a brewery, where the price of admission also covered a souvenir glass. The brewery would then give you a few pours of "free beer". They emphasized that they were definitely not selling me any beer.

imglorp 1y ago

> Starting today, customers can browse, finance, and purchase certified pre-owned Ford vehicles online through Amazon Autos, with in-person pickup at a local Ford dealership. This whole thing sounds like dealership with extra steps and a middleman fee.

dawnerd 1y ago
Would love to see how much pressure is put onto purchasing addons from the local dealers. I remember reading people running into that when picking up their Lightnings.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  "We had us a deal here for nine-teen-five. You sat there and darned if you didn't tell me you'd get this car, these options, without the sealant, for nine-teen-five!" "Yeah but that TruCoat.... Lemme talk to my boss..."

rdtsc 1y ago

Wonder if there an opportunity there to set up distribution in the few states that don't have that law and make everything easy online - out of state registration, delivery (for a fee). The dealerships in the 48 states will probably sue the manufacturers, they are not just going to let it slide, I suspect.

geodel 1y ago

Agree. Dealing with Amazon customer support is such a great experience and it keeps on improving every time I reach out to them.

apparent 1y ago
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. I remember when their customer service was truly great, about 20 years ago. Now it is not great, but still much better than car dealers, IMO.
rchaud 1y ago
When did you last use their support? 15 years ago, I needed to click 1 button to chat with support instantly about a faulty iPod I bought. They issued a refund and return mail label instantly. 3 months ago, I had to navigate multiple froms and dropdowns to even reach a chat representative. And when I did, they had none of the information I spent several minutes filling out. The rep then grilled me about my order, seemingly incredulous that Amazon had sent me a "new" product that was clearly used and repackaged when I opened it (this has been common for years as Amazon commingles its own stock with that of 3rd party sellers).
- apparent 1y ago
  FWIW I find Amazon's phone support to be faster than the chat stuff. It's usually just a couple mins, most of which time you're on hold while they're fixing it. My wife hates dealing with returns, but I find that it's usually no big deal, and often they'll give you $5 or $10 for your trouble, if things don't get sorted out the first time (which seems to be about 10% of the time).
- HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
  ? I've returned two items from Amazon in the last year and in both cases, all I had to do was click on the "Return" button and drop it off at my local UPS Store. Why did you need to talk to support?
  - rchaud 1y ago