6 ms·

> Things I learned to look out for: Don't buy any recent Intels. Some Intel ThinkPads have accelerometers built-in just to throttle your PC to oblivion when it

> Things I learned to look out for: Don't buy any recent Intels. Some Intel ThinkPads have accelerometers built-in just to throttle your PC to oblivion when it moves. Basically unusable in any moving vehicle such as a train. It's basically anti-portability baked-in. When it doesn't throttle, it just has abysmal battery life compared to AMD Ryzen ThinkPads of the same generation. Both lose horribly to Apple's ARM chips though. They also tend to have soldered WiFi modules, making it impossible to upgrade later when newer and better WiFi iterations come out. If that had been the case with a few of the older models I still have, they would be unusable at this point. There are plenty of firmware bugs as well. For example plenty of Lenovo (especially Intel as far as I've seen) models have stuttery and freezing touchpads. Though the touchpads tend to be horrible anyways. I'd say the older (5+ years old) generations might have had slightly better driver support or they're finally fixed at this point. But there's nothing I'd spend my money on if I can just as well install Asahi on an M-series laptop.

eptcyka 11mo ago
M1 and M2. But those are in an entirely different price bracket. I’d go so far as to say those are not comparable.
- doublepg23 11mo ago
  You can buy refurb M1s for $379 at Walmart.
  - bigyabai 11mo ago
    Has a proprietary bootloader that Apple can lock in an OTA update. Also doesn't support Linux as well as Intel or AMD chipsets, unfortunately.
    - Forgeties79 11mo ago
      Last I heard asahi ran pretty well on M1/M2. Is that not the case?
      - SirHumphrey 11mo ago
        It runs well but battery life is quite a bit worse than on macos.
        Forgeties79 11mo ago
        That’s not particularly surprising to be honest. A lot of what makes Apple tech what it is is the concert between their hardware and software. Not trying to put it too poetically here, but that’s what it’s always seemed like to me. In general when I install Linux on an Apple device I just assume there isn’t the same level of performance. I remember installing mint on a 2016 intel MBpro and the limitations/cons didn’t surprise me at all because I just kind of expected it to perform at 70% of what I expected from macOS but with far more free freedom/control. It ran very smoothly but you definitely lose a lot of functionality.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        > A lot of what makes Apple tech what it is is the concert between their hardware and software. That's very cute, but it's not why Apple laptops run Linux poorly. Apple Silicon has terrible and inefficient support because Apple released no documentation of their hardware. The driver efforts are all reverse-engineered and likely crippled by Apple's hidden trade secrets. This is why even Qualcomm chips run Linux better than Apple Silicon; they release documentation. Apple refuses, because then they can smugly pride themselves on "integration" and other plainly false catchisms. And on Intel/AMD, Apple was well known for up-tuning their ACPI tables to prevent thermal throttling before the junction temp. This was an absolutely terrible decision on Apple's behalf, and led to other OSes misbehaving alongside constant overheating on macOS - my Intel Macs were regularly idling ~10-20c hotter than my other Intel machines.
        Forgeties79 11mo ago
        >That's very cute, but it's not why Apple laptops run Linux poorly. I have no doubt you have good information after this, but this sentence makes me not want to read any further.
    - throawayonthe 11mo ago
      i don't think either of those is really true? https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/open-os-interop/ https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/open-os-interop/
      - bigyabai 11mo ago
        Literally the first step of the boot overview depends on a proprietary and irreplaceable Apple-controlled blob: iBoot2 loads the custom kernel, which is a build of m1n1 Apple decides whether or not m1n1 ever loads.
        oneplane 11mo ago
        Only if you boot into macOS and connect it to the internet. iBoot2 never changes by itself, you, the user, decides if you want to boot into recovery or macOS and run an update. So can Apple stop signing new iBoot2 versions? Sure! And that sucks. But it's a bit of FUD to claim that Apple at arbitrary points in time is going to brick your laptop with no option for you to prevent that. Granted, if you boot both macOS and Asahi, then yes, you are in this predicament, but again, that is a choice. You can never connect macOS or recovery to the internet, or never boot them.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        > You can never connect macOS or recovery to the internet, or never boot them In other words, you're completely fucked if you brick your install. I consider iBoot a direct user-hostile downgrade from UEFI for this reason. YMMV, but I would never trust my day-to-day on an iBoot machine. UEFI has no such limitations, and Apple is well-known for making controversial choices in OTA updates that users have no alternative to.
        oneplane 11mo ago
        > In other words, you're completely fucked if you brick your install. I consider iBoot a direct user-hostile downgrade from UEFI for this reason. That's a bit of a creative perspective, isn't it? You have no control over the UEFI implementation of your vendor, same can be said for AGESA and ME, as well as any FSP/BSP/BUP packages, BROM signatures or eFused CPUs. And on top of that, you'll have preloaded certificates (usually from Microsoft) that will expire at some point, and when they do and the vendor doesn't replace them, the machine might never boot again (in a UEFI configuration where SecureBoot cannot be disabled as was the case in this Fujitsu - that took a firmware upgrade that the vendor had to supply, which is the exception rather than the rule). For DIY builds this tends to be better, Framework also makes this a tad more reliable. If anything, most OEM UEFI implementations come with a (x509) timer that when expires, bricks your machine. iBoot2 is just a bunch of files (including the signed boot policy) you can copy and keep around, forever, no lifetimer. Now, if we wanted to escape all this, your only option is to either get really old hardware, or get non-x86 hardware that isn't Apple M-series or IBM. That means you're pretty much stuck with low-end ARM and lower-end RISC-V, unless you accept AGESA or Intel ME at which point coreboot becomes viable.
  - eptcyka 11mo ago
    M1 mac minis or macbooks?
    - geoffpado 11mo ago
      MacBook Air, though the $379 price does seem to be a Black Friday deal: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Restored-Apple-MacBook-Air-13-Laptop-Bundle-Apple-M1-8GB-RAM-128GB-SSD-Includes-Charger-Case-Mouse-Keyboard-Cover-Earbuds-Refurbished/16641414753?conditionGroupCode=2&classType=REGULAR&athbdg=L1800&from=/search https://www.walmart.com/ip/Restored-Apple-MacBook-Air-13-Lap...
      - ilikepi 11mo ago
        Just note that listing is for an item from a third-party seller. Walmart's website includes listings from their third-party marketplace unless you explicitly filter them out.
gear54rus 11mo ago
> Some Intel ThinkPads have accelerometers built-in just to throttle your PC to oblivion when it moves Wtf? That sounds crazy, any sources?
- ajsnigrutin 11mo ago
  They don't want you to burn your testicles when keeping it in your lap. https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/pubs/x1e_p1_gen5/html/html_en/explore_intelligent_cooling.html https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/pubs/x1e_p1_gen5/html/htm... > The Cool and Quiet on lap feature helps cool down your computer when it becomes hot. Any extended contact with your body, even through clothing, could cause discomfort. If you prefer using your computer on the lap, it is recommended that you enable the Cool and Quiet on lap feature in UEFI BIOS: (it can be disabled on this laptop) more: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1416567/disable-lap-mode-on-lenovo-laptop https://askubuntu.com/questions/1416567/disable-lap-mode-on-...
  - VBprogrammer 11mo ago
    Honestly, I wasn't to say this is ridiculous but I've got a i7 13" laptop which I bought to do practically everything (personal coding projects, a bit of gaming, video editing, 3d modeling etc). I do find the heat of it is quite uncomfortable after a short period of time on my lap. I was thinking about getting a M series MacBook for messing around on the couch and building a desktop for many of those other tasks. My work MacBook Pro on the other hand could do with the opposite some times. Burn a bit of battery to heat up the aluminium case please!
- swinglock 11mo ago
  This used to be a feature to protect spinning hard drives. Why this would exist today and why it would throttle anything is bizarre.
bitwize 11mo ago
ThinkPads used to have accelerometers to protect the hard drives, so if you dropped the machine or treated it roughly, it could park the drive, protecting it from data loss. People used to write Linux utilities that read these accelerometers, allowing for example to switch virtual desktops by physically smacking the machine on either side.
- xeonmc 11mo ago
  That’s horrifying.
  - throawayonthe 11mo ago
    i think these also existed for macs with HDDs, i recall seeing some very fun demos on youtube
  - wanderer2323 11mo ago
    Look, my setup works for me.
    - dcminter 11mo ago
      ISWYDT https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/
  - calvinmorrison 11mo ago
    HDAPs Hard drive active protection system parked the heads in Ms, fast enough to handle a hard drop off a desk
ofalkaed 11mo ago
In my experience Intel and AMD Thinkpads of that era are about the same for battery life but Intel always needs some kernel parameters set. Where I notice the biggest difference is Intel's integrated graphics gets you better battery life over anything AMD if your GPU needs are modest enough to be handled by Intel's integrated graphics
60Vhipx7b4JL 11mo ago
Maybe what you are noticing is the "laptop on lap" detection? Check the bios, there was a "cool when on lap detected" mode on mine. Turn that off and re-test.
- Avamander 11mo ago
  Yes, that's it, but there's no toggle to turn it off. Maybe it can be patched, but I don't want to fight my hardware like that.
teo_zero 11mo ago
> there's nothing I'd spend my money on if I can just as well install Asahi on an M-series laptop. But such laptops don't work 100% with Asahi. Speakers and mic, external displays, fingerprint reader, suspend are the sore points I've read about, and shorter battery life compared to when they run Apple's SO.
rootsudo 11mo ago
Accelerometers aren’t new, they were a feature 20yrs ago to suspend platter hard disks.

eptcyka 11mo ago

M1 and M2. But those are in an entirely different price bracket. I’d go so far as to say those are not comparable.

doublepg23 11mo ago
You can buy refurb M1s for $379 at Walmart.
- bigyabai 11mo ago
  Has a proprietary bootloader that Apple can lock in an OTA update. Also doesn't support Linux as well as Intel or AMD chipsets, unfortunately.
  - Forgeties79 11mo ago
    Last I heard asahi ran pretty well on M1/M2. Is that not the case?
    - SirHumphrey 11mo ago
      It runs well but battery life is quite a bit worse than on macos.
      - Forgeties79 11mo ago
        That’s not particularly surprising to be honest. A lot of what makes Apple tech what it is is the concert between their hardware and software. Not trying to put it too poetically here, but that’s what it’s always seemed like to me. In general when I install Linux on an Apple device I just assume there isn’t the same level of performance. I remember installing mint on a 2016 intel MBpro and the limitations/cons didn’t surprise me at all because I just kind of expected it to perform at 70% of what I expected from macOS but with far more free freedom/control. It ran very smoothly but you definitely lose a lot of functionality.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        > A lot of what makes Apple tech what it is is the concert between their hardware and software. That's very cute, but it's not why Apple laptops run Linux poorly. Apple Silicon has terrible and inefficient support because Apple released no documentation of their hardware. The driver efforts are all reverse-engineered and likely crippled by Apple's hidden trade secrets. This is why even Qualcomm chips run Linux better than Apple Silicon; they release documentation. Apple refuses, because then they can smugly pride themselves on "integration" and other plainly false catchisms. And on Intel/AMD, Apple was well known for up-tuning their ACPI tables to prevent thermal throttling before the junction temp. This was an absolutely terrible decision on Apple's behalf, and led to other OSes misbehaving alongside constant overheating on macOS - my Intel Macs were regularly idling ~10-20c hotter than my other Intel machines.
        Forgeties79 11mo ago
        >That's very cute, but it's not why Apple laptops run Linux poorly. I have no doubt you have good information after this, but this sentence makes me not want to read any further.
  - throawayonthe 11mo ago
    i don't think either of those is really true? https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/open-os-interop/ https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/open-os-interop/
    - bigyabai 11mo ago
      Literally the first step of the boot overview depends on a proprietary and irreplaceable Apple-controlled blob: iBoot2 loads the custom kernel, which is a build of m1n1 Apple decides whether or not m1n1 ever loads.
      - oneplane 11mo ago
        Only if you boot into macOS and connect it to the internet. iBoot2 never changes by itself, you, the user, decides if you want to boot into recovery or macOS and run an update. So can Apple stop signing new iBoot2 versions? Sure! And that sucks. But it's a bit of FUD to claim that Apple at arbitrary points in time is going to brick your laptop with no option for you to prevent that. Granted, if you boot both macOS and Asahi, then yes, you are in this predicament, but again, that is a choice. You can never connect macOS or recovery to the internet, or never boot them.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        > You can never connect macOS or recovery to the internet, or never boot them In other words, you're completely fucked if you brick your install. I consider iBoot a direct user-hostile downgrade from UEFI for this reason. YMMV, but I would never trust my day-to-day on an iBoot machine. UEFI has no such limitations, and Apple is well-known for making controversial choices in OTA updates that users have no alternative to.
        oneplane 11mo ago
        > In other words, you're completely fucked if you brick your install. I consider iBoot a direct user-hostile downgrade from UEFI for this reason. That's a bit of a creative perspective, isn't it? You have no control over the UEFI implementation of your vendor, same can be said for AGESA and ME, as well as any FSP/BSP/BUP packages, BROM signatures or eFused CPUs. And on top of that, you'll have preloaded certificates (usually from Microsoft) that will expire at some point, and when they do and the vendor doesn't replace them, the machine might never boot again (in a UEFI configuration where SecureBoot cannot be disabled as was the case in this Fujitsu - that took a firmware upgrade that the vendor had to supply, which is the exception rather than the rule). For DIY builds this tends to be better, Framework also makes this a tad more reliable. If anything, most OEM UEFI implementations come with a (x509) timer that when expires, bricks your machine. iBoot2 is just a bunch of files (including the signed boot policy) you can copy and keep around, forever, no lifetimer. Now, if we wanted to escape all this, your only option is to either get really old hardware, or get non-x86 hardware that isn't Apple M-series or IBM. That means you're pretty much stuck with low-end ARM and lower-end RISC-V, unless you accept AGESA or Intel ME at which point coreboot becomes viable.
- eptcyka 11mo ago
  M1 mac minis or macbooks?
  - geoffpado 11mo ago
    MacBook Air, though the $379 price does seem to be a Black Friday deal: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Restored-Apple-MacBook-Air-13-Laptop-Bundle-Apple-M1-8GB-RAM-128GB-SSD-Includes-Charger-Case-Mouse-Keyboard-Cover-Earbuds-Refurbished/16641414753?conditionGroupCode=2&classType=REGULAR&athbdg=L1800&from=/search https://www.walmart.com/ip/Restored-Apple-MacBook-Air-13-Lap...
    - ilikepi 11mo ago
      Just note that listing is for an item from a third-party seller. Walmart's website includes listings from their third-party marketplace unless you explicitly filter them out.

gear54rus 11mo ago

> Some Intel ThinkPads have accelerometers built-in just to throttle your PC to oblivion when it moves Wtf? That sounds crazy, any sources?

ajsnigrutin 11mo ago
They don't want you to burn your testicles when keeping it in your lap. https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/pubs/x1e_p1_gen5/html/html_en/explore_intelligent_cooling.html https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/pubs/x1e_p1_gen5/html/htm... > The Cool and Quiet on lap feature helps cool down your computer when it becomes hot. Any extended contact with your body, even through clothing, could cause discomfort. If you prefer using your computer on the lap, it is recommended that you enable the Cool and Quiet on lap feature in UEFI BIOS: (it can be disabled on this laptop) more: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1416567/disable-lap-mode-on-lenovo-laptop https://askubuntu.com/questions/1416567/disable-lap-mode-on-...
- VBprogrammer 11mo ago
  Honestly, I wasn't to say this is ridiculous but I've got a i7 13" laptop which I bought to do practically everything (personal coding projects, a bit of gaming, video editing, 3d modeling etc). I do find the heat of it is quite uncomfortable after a short period of time on my lap. I was thinking about getting a M series MacBook for messing around on the couch and building a desktop for many of those other tasks. My work MacBook Pro on the other hand could do with the opposite some times. Burn a bit of battery to heat up the aluminium case please!
swinglock 11mo ago
This used to be a feature to protect spinning hard drives. Why this would exist today and why it would throttle anything is bizarre.

bitwize 11mo ago

ThinkPads used to have accelerometers to protect the hard drives, so if you dropped the machine or treated it roughly, it could park the drive, protecting it from data loss. People used to write Linux utilities that read these accelerometers, allowing for example to switch virtual desktops by physically smacking the machine on either side.

xeonmc 11mo ago
That’s horrifying.
- throawayonthe 11mo ago
  i think these also existed for macs with HDDs, i recall seeing some very fun demos on youtube
- wanderer2323 11mo ago
  Look, my setup works for me.
  - dcminter 11mo ago
    ISWYDT https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/
- calvinmorrison 11mo ago
  HDAPs Hard drive active protection system parked the heads in Ms, fast enough to handle a hard drop off a desk

ofalkaed 11mo ago

In my experience Intel and AMD Thinkpads of that era are about the same for battery life but Intel always needs some kernel parameters set. Where I notice the biggest difference is Intel's integrated graphics gets you better battery life over anything AMD if your GPU needs are modest enough to be handled by Intel's integrated graphics

60Vhipx7b4JL 11mo ago

Maybe what you are noticing is the "laptop on lap" detection? Check the bios, there was a "cool when on lap detected" mode on mine. Turn that off and re-test.

Avamander 11mo ago
Yes, that's it, but there's no toggle to turn it off. Maybe it can be patched, but I don't want to fight my hardware like that.

teo_zero 11mo ago

> there's nothing I'd spend my money on if I can just as well install Asahi on an M-series laptop. But such laptops don't work 100% with Asahi. Speakers and mic, external displays, fingerprint reader, suspend are the sore points I've read about, and shorter battery life compared to when they run Apple's SO.

rootsudo 11mo ago

Accelerometers aren’t new, they were a feature 20yrs ago to suspend platter hard disks.