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I'm seeing comments jumping to conclusions about taking manganese supplements or trying to starve yourself of manganese. These are dangerously wrong interpretat

I'm seeing comments jumping to conclusions about taking manganese supplements or trying to starve yourself of manganese. These are dangerously wrong interpretations of the article. Any interventions would have to be targeted directly at the B. burgdorferi to disrupt their internal regulation of manganese. It's a long shot used to make this research discovery sound more impressive, not an actual cure. Your own body uses manganese for critical processes like your metabolism, critical brain functionality, and generating important antioxidants in your mitochondria (MnSOD, the same one mentioned inside of Lyme in the article). Your body also regulates manganese absorption and excretion. Manganese deficiency is extremely rare outside of genetic conditions or other medical problems which interfere with this regulation. You can't really starve yourself of manganese by adjusting your diet or even by periods of fasting. So if you're reading this and thinking you could defeat Lyme by starving yourself of manganese or overdosing on manganese, don't. That's not what this article is saying.

mlinhares 1y ago
Some of the comments here are the kind of stuff that makes you lose faith in humanity.
caycep 1y ago
this sort of case presentation re manganese brain toxicity pops up from time to time too: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4515672/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4515672/
btilly 1y ago
I agree that we should not simply self-treat by supplements or starving ourselves. But you are dead wrong that interventions would need to be directly targeted at B. burgdorferi. The standard and effective treatment for TB back in the 1950s was a combination therapy with Streptomycin, Isoniazid (INH), and PAS. The purpose of PAS was to create a low manganese environment in the body, which put stress on Mycobacterium tuberculosis - the bacteria that causes TB. This stress did not kill the bacteria by itself, but it did make it more vulnerable to the rest of the treatment. Because of this treatment, we have a lot of data showing how well people do with low manganese for a period of 1-2 years. (That was the time that this treatment required.) It wasn't pleasant (in particular it came with nausea), but it was definitely survivable. If low manganese really does stress B. burgdorferi, then a similar combination is worth trying today. Better yet, this combination would not require the development of a new drug that needs FDA approval. It can be tried using only drugs that have been long approved, and which are already part of standard medical practice. (Granted, PAS is no longer used for TB. But it is the standard treatment for an excess of manganese.)
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > The purpose of PAS was to create a low manganese environment in the body, Do you have a source for this? I searched, but this recent paper on the mechanism of action for para-Aminosalicylic Acid (PAS) doesn't even mention manganese. It says it targets Dihydrofolate Reductase pathways: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/ Searching for manganese and TB leads me to papers showing that manganese is an essential cofactor for Isoniazid's anti-TB action: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319159/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319159/ but nothing about inducing low manganese states would be helpful or intentional. So I don't think I'm dead wrong at all. Unless you have some sources, I don't think inducing manganese deficiency is actually the mechanism of action for PAS. > we have a lot of data showing how well people do with low manganese for a period of 1-2 years. (That was the time that this treatment required.) It wasn't pleasant (in particular it came with nausea), but it was definitely survivable. Again, do you have any source for this? Preferably a source that indicates what manganese levels were reduced to during treatment? The side effects are likely due to the 3 drugs in combination which have their own side effects, not low manganese (if it occurred). EDIT: This commenter was making the same claim down thread and admitted they couldn't find a source for their claim: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45932379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45932379 It seems like they're making assumptions and presenting it as scientific fact.
  - butvacuum 1y ago
    "cofactor is a non-protein chemical compound or metallic ion that is required for an enzyme to function as a catalyst."
- hinkley 1y ago
  I don’t recall the chemical, but there was one mentioned on Everything is Tuberculosis. Someone discovered that aspirin makes TB metabolize more oxygen. Someone found a chemical with the opposite effect, suppressing instead of exciting the same pathway. Based on you’re description I don’t believe it was PAS though.
DANmode 1y ago
> Any interventions would have to be targeted directly at the B. burgdorferi Alcohol suspension tincture of the following antibacterial herbs together, which target Lyme's various coinfections: a. Cryptolepsis sanguinolenta b. Polygonum cuspidatum (aka: Japanese knotweed) c. Artemisia annua (aka: Sweet wormwood) d. Uncaria tomentosa (aka: Cat’s claw) Begin with one drop two times per day, increasing to tolerance/under advisement of your ND/MD, or wellness consultant.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- jiggawatts 1y ago
  Make sure to draw blood with leeches twice a week for the best effect, but only after burying a lock of your hair at midnight in the garden.
  - amypetrik8 1y ago
    as for lyme disease - doxycycline works well anon's herbals have SOME clinical evidence generally : https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2956313/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2956313/ It's important to demarcate flavors of medicine at play here: - MD "allopathic medicine" this is what we all consider normal medicine. They have hardcore requirements for clinical evidence. - ND "naturopathic medicine" is a fully government licensed form of medicine (in certain places such as pacific northwest). They generally have less hardcore requirements for evidence, but do use evidence nonetheless, sometimes pre-clinical. All this recent interest in "senolytics"... a lot of what exists such as quercetin or fisetin, those are herbals, the ND's domain. And these have preclinical evidence against cancer. SOME are pretty cool and scientific people, of course, some are crazy hippie dippies what with the mushrooms and the healing crystals - leeches "humoral medicine". This is an ancient and non-empirical form of medicine based on primarily the works of Roman physician Galen but bears similarities to medicines in other nations like China - "hot" and "cold" disease states vs hot & cold food, four humors, one of which is blood. If the disease is "too much humoral blood" the treatment is then the leech to lower that blood. This is very much distinct from the ND (at least I hope)
hinkley 1y ago
I have heard that forensic analysis can see a distinct sufficient enough difference in bone manganese levels to identify the diet of a deceased person. Vegetarian diets end up with excess Mn stored in the bones. Like calcium, it’s needed and water soluble so you’ve gotta store it for a rainy day.

mlinhares 1y ago

Some of the comments here are the kind of stuff that makes you lose faith in humanity.

caycep 1y ago

this sort of case presentation re manganese brain toxicity pops up from time to time too: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4515672/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4515672/

btilly 1y ago

I agree that we should not simply self-treat by supplements or starving ourselves. But you are dead wrong that interventions would need to be directly targeted at B. burgdorferi. The standard and effective treatment for TB back in the 1950s was a combination therapy with Streptomycin, Isoniazid (INH), and PAS. The purpose of PAS was to create a low manganese environment in the body, which put stress on Mycobacterium tuberculosis - the bacteria that causes TB. This stress did not kill the bacteria by itself, but it did make it more vulnerable to the rest of the treatment. Because of this treatment, we have a lot of data showing how well people do with low manganese for a period of 1-2 years. (That was the time that this treatment required.) It wasn't pleasant (in particular it came with nausea), but it was definitely survivable. If low manganese really does stress B. burgdorferi, then a similar combination is worth trying today. Better yet, this combination would not require the development of a new drug that needs FDA approval. It can be tried using only drugs that have been long approved, and which are already part of standard medical practice. (Granted, PAS is no longer used for TB. But it is the standard treatment for an excess of manganese.)

Aurornis 1y ago
> The purpose of PAS was to create a low manganese environment in the body, Do you have a source for this? I searched, but this recent paper on the mechanism of action for para-Aminosalicylic Acid (PAS) doesn't even mention manganese. It says it targets Dihydrofolate Reductase pathways: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/ Searching for manganese and TB leads me to papers showing that manganese is an essential cofactor for Isoniazid's anti-TB action: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319159/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319159/ but nothing about inducing low manganese states would be helpful or intentional. So I don't think I'm dead wrong at all. Unless you have some sources, I don't think inducing manganese deficiency is actually the mechanism of action for PAS. > we have a lot of data showing how well people do with low manganese for a period of 1-2 years. (That was the time that this treatment required.) It wasn't pleasant (in particular it came with nausea), but it was definitely survivable. Again, do you have any source for this? Preferably a source that indicates what manganese levels were reduced to during treatment? The side effects are likely due to the 3 drugs in combination which have their own side effects, not low manganese (if it occurred). EDIT: This commenter was making the same claim down thread and admitted they couldn't find a source for their claim: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45932379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45932379 It seems like they're making assumptions and presenting it as scientific fact.
- butvacuum 1y ago
  "cofactor is a non-protein chemical compound or metallic ion that is required for an enzyme to function as a catalyst."
hinkley 1y ago
I don’t recall the chemical, but there was one mentioned on Everything is Tuberculosis. Someone discovered that aspirin makes TB metabolize more oxygen. Someone found a chemical with the opposite effect, suppressing instead of exciting the same pathway. Based on you’re description I don’t believe it was PAS though.

DANmode 1y ago

> Any interventions would have to be targeted directly at the B. burgdorferi Alcohol suspension tincture of the following antibacterial herbs together, which target Lyme's various coinfections: a. Cryptolepsis sanguinolenta b. Polygonum cuspidatum (aka: Japanese knotweed) c. Artemisia annua (aka: Sweet wormwood) d. Uncaria tomentosa (aka: Cat’s claw) Begin with one drop two times per day, increasing to tolerance/under advisement of your ND/MD, or wellness consultant.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jiggawatts 1y ago
Make sure to draw blood with leeches twice a week for the best effect, but only after burying a lock of your hair at midnight in the garden.
- amypetrik8 1y ago
  as for lyme disease - doxycycline works well anon's herbals have SOME clinical evidence generally : https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2956313/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2956313/ It's important to demarcate flavors of medicine at play here: - MD "allopathic medicine" this is what we all consider normal medicine. They have hardcore requirements for clinical evidence. - ND "naturopathic medicine" is a fully government licensed form of medicine (in certain places such as pacific northwest). They generally have less hardcore requirements for evidence, but do use evidence nonetheless, sometimes pre-clinical. All this recent interest in "senolytics"... a lot of what exists such as quercetin or fisetin, those are herbals, the ND's domain. And these have preclinical evidence against cancer. SOME are pretty cool and scientific people, of course, some are crazy hippie dippies what with the mushrooms and the healing crystals - leeches "humoral medicine". This is an ancient and non-empirical form of medicine based on primarily the works of Roman physician Galen but bears similarities to medicines in other nations like China - "hot" and "cold" disease states vs hot & cold food, four humors, one of which is blood. If the disease is "too much humoral blood" the treatment is then the leech to lower that blood. This is very much distinct from the ND (at least I hope)

hinkley 1y ago

I have heard that forensic analysis can see a distinct sufficient enough difference in bone manganese levels to identify the diet of a deceased person. Vegetarian diets end up with excess Mn stored in the bones. Like calcium, it’s needed and water soluble so you’ve gotta store it for a rainy day.