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I don't think I would exactly call these men "monks". It has been pretty normal throughout history for a fairly large proportion of men, especially those lower

I don't think I would exactly call these men "monks". It has been pretty normal throughout history for a fairly large proportion of men, especially those lower down the economic ladder, to be permanently single or not marry until pretty late in life. These days, they don't have to work as much to avoid complete destitution or starvation, they're not as likely to die young, and they've largely replaced visiting cheap prostitutes with gooning, but otherwise this is not any unprecedented phenomenon. It does mean that the economic growth that allowed most men to be a plausible marriage partner in the mid-20th century no longer obtains, which is a bad thing, despite the small comfort of consumer goods being cheap enough to alleviate some of this pain.

topadmin 11mo ago
[flagged]
- otikik 11mo ago
  Whaaaat.
- beedeebeedee 11mo ago
  Ehhh- if these men really wanted companionship, they could find it. It only takes a little social courage, and accepting others (as they wish to be accepted). They are not being canceled because they don’t play by women’s rules. The fact is, these men are deeply confused and push away as they pull in. My suggestion would be to lean into monasticism and not just use the term ‘monk’ as a euphemism for not having female relationships. I don’t think anyone should be a monk long-term, but use it as a transitional period to examine and explore why they are so confused and come to terms with it. Blaming women for their problems just makes it intractable because their problem is within themselves
  - topadmin 11mo ago
    [flagged]
    - some_furry 11mo ago
      > Most women do not respect the men they are with. I very much doubt this is true. Do you have any evidence for this claim? Or, is it possible that you mean something else when you say "respect" than I do? If so, please elaborate. I'm curious.
      - slater 11mo ago
        I'm thinking OP is just vague-booking the "which opinions, mfer???" goose meme.
    - freejazz 11mo ago
      > Companionship is easy to find, but finding someone who respects you is not. And these men wonder why women don't want to be with them!
  - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
    > Ehhh- if these men really wanted companionship, they could find it. It only takes a little social courage, and accepting others (as they wish to be accepted). They are not being canceled because they don’t play by women’s rules. I know at least one guy who refuses to "settle" for anything but his ideal woman - and frankly, that ideal woman is out of his reach, mostly but not entirely due to his personality. So yes - men could absolutely find companionship. But a lot of them refuse to accept anything that's not a supermodel whose day consists of administering on-demand blowjobs.
    - sublinear 11mo ago
      This is a severe oversimplification of young men (and women). There's no way you could possibly know what this "one guy" wants. What a person finds ideal is going to be way more complicated than they can communicate in a few words. There's absolutely nothing wrong with chasing it. The refinement of that ideal is precisely what it means to have a relationship. The real "problem" is that some people have a hard time seeing the potential when they're young because it takes a lifetime of experience. Instead of committing and working with what they've got, they just find another person until their ideal has been shaped by enough experience. Long term monogamy can definitely be just as unhealthy and foolish. Most of those kinds of people jump into the deep end too early and overestimate their abilities and knowledge. Depending on how stubborn and egotistical they are they may double down and create a huge mess for themselves. They're lucky if their partner is forgiving, but make no mistake that's suffering not love. Either way everyone ends up knowing the same things. I don't understand why these debates keep coming up on the internet since even our great grandparents could have said every word I just did. Old news.
      - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
        > There's no way you could possibly know what this "one guy" wants. What do you mean? He used to be a good friend. We've literally talked about this. He's talked about it with other people, including women, and the rest of the friend group has also discussed this. It was more than "a few words". I mean, in one sense we can never truly know what's going on inside someone's head, but unless we just take the slide down to solipsism, that doesn't really get us anywhere. > I don't understand why these debates keep coming up on the internet since even our great grandparents could have said every word I just did. Old news. Our grandparents lived in vastly different times. Yes, the huge choice of dating partners in the modern world is a detriment, but it's better than living in a small town and knowing that you have two people you could potentially marry, or stay a bachelor (which isn't a choice often granted to women.) One grandparent in my family literally married a man to escape her abusive family; her love for him was strongly shaped by the fact that he was the only man in her life who didn't beat her, and offered to take her out of the situation by joining the military.
- pavel_lishin 11mo ago
  > The key difference is they are in control of the culture Big ol' [citation needed] on that one.
  - hypeatei 11mo ago
    I do think the original commenter could've elaborated more, but asking for citations in this type of thread seems strange. It's not like politics where you can link to a statement from <representative of political party> to prove a point. There is no single representative of men or women.
    - some_furry 11mo ago
      No, but this is the sort of thing you'd expect the social sciences to have published research on if it were at all true.
    - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
      Fair. I guess I wanted them to explain a statement that, to me, seems both wrong and ludicrous, and basically a dogwhistle.
    - dragonwriter 11mo ago
      > It's not like politics where you can link to a statement from <representative of political party> to prove a point. Yes, a quote from a party representative is not the kind of evidence called for, but “women control the culture” is a fact claim which does call for some kind of evidence (either directly provided or as a citation to someone else who has provided it.)
  - Invictus0 11mo ago
    Not op but there is some evidence emerging that women have an advantage in hiring in media and academia. https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/rethinking-sexism-in-science https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/rethinking-sexism-in-...
    - dragonwriter 11mo ago
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  Fortunately, these days, men who don't want to play by "the women's rules" are free to find (and even have legally recognized) companionship with other men with similar concerns.
  - some_furry 11mo ago
    If only sexuality was a choice, I wouldn't have suffered as much in life. (Gay, single, in my 30's, heh.)

topadmin 11mo ago

[flagged]

otikik 11mo ago
Whaaaat.
beedeebeedee 11mo ago
Ehhh- if these men really wanted companionship, they could find it. It only takes a little social courage, and accepting others (as they wish to be accepted). They are not being canceled because they don’t play by women’s rules. The fact is, these men are deeply confused and push away as they pull in. My suggestion would be to lean into monasticism and not just use the term ‘monk’ as a euphemism for not having female relationships. I don’t think anyone should be a monk long-term, but use it as a transitional period to examine and explore why they are so confused and come to terms with it. Blaming women for their problems just makes it intractable because their problem is within themselves
- topadmin 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - some_furry 11mo ago
    > Most women do not respect the men they are with. I very much doubt this is true. Do you have any evidence for this claim? Or, is it possible that you mean something else when you say "respect" than I do? If so, please elaborate. I'm curious.
    - slater 11mo ago
      I'm thinking OP is just vague-booking the "which opinions, mfer???" goose meme.
  - freejazz 11mo ago
    > Companionship is easy to find, but finding someone who respects you is not. And these men wonder why women don't want to be with them!
- pavel_lishin 11mo ago
  > Ehhh- if these men really wanted companionship, they could find it. It only takes a little social courage, and accepting others (as they wish to be accepted). They are not being canceled because they don’t play by women’s rules. I know at least one guy who refuses to "settle" for anything but his ideal woman - and frankly, that ideal woman is out of his reach, mostly but not entirely due to his personality. So yes - men could absolutely find companionship. But a lot of them refuse to accept anything that's not a supermodel whose day consists of administering on-demand blowjobs.
  - sublinear 11mo ago
    This is a severe oversimplification of young men (and women). There's no way you could possibly know what this "one guy" wants. What a person finds ideal is going to be way more complicated than they can communicate in a few words. There's absolutely nothing wrong with chasing it. The refinement of that ideal is precisely what it means to have a relationship. The real "problem" is that some people have a hard time seeing the potential when they're young because it takes a lifetime of experience. Instead of committing and working with what they've got, they just find another person until their ideal has been shaped by enough experience. Long term monogamy can definitely be just as unhealthy and foolish. Most of those kinds of people jump into the deep end too early and overestimate their abilities and knowledge. Depending on how stubborn and egotistical they are they may double down and create a huge mess for themselves. They're lucky if their partner is forgiving, but make no mistake that's suffering not love. Either way everyone ends up knowing the same things. I don't understand why these debates keep coming up on the internet since even our great grandparents could have said every word I just did. Old news.
    - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
      > There's no way you could possibly know what this "one guy" wants. What do you mean? He used to be a good friend. We've literally talked about this. He's talked about it with other people, including women, and the rest of the friend group has also discussed this. It was more than "a few words". I mean, in one sense we can never truly know what's going on inside someone's head, but unless we just take the slide down to solipsism, that doesn't really get us anywhere. > I don't understand why these debates keep coming up on the internet since even our great grandparents could have said every word I just did. Old news. Our grandparents lived in vastly different times. Yes, the huge choice of dating partners in the modern world is a detriment, but it's better than living in a small town and knowing that you have two people you could potentially marry, or stay a bachelor (which isn't a choice often granted to women.) One grandparent in my family literally married a man to escape her abusive family; her love for him was strongly shaped by the fact that he was the only man in her life who didn't beat her, and offered to take her out of the situation by joining the military.
pavel_lishin 11mo ago
> The key difference is they are in control of the culture Big ol' [citation needed] on that one.
- hypeatei 11mo ago
  I do think the original commenter could've elaborated more, but asking for citations in this type of thread seems strange. It's not like politics where you can link to a statement from <representative of political party> to prove a point. There is no single representative of men or women.
  - some_furry 11mo ago
    No, but this is the sort of thing you'd expect the social sciences to have published research on if it were at all true.
  - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
    Fair. I guess I wanted them to explain a statement that, to me, seems both wrong and ludicrous, and basically a dogwhistle.
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
    > It's not like politics where you can link to a statement from <representative of political party> to prove a point. Yes, a quote from a party representative is not the kind of evidence called for, but “women control the culture” is a fact claim which does call for some kind of evidence (either directly provided or as a citation to someone else who has provided it.)
- Invictus0 11mo ago
  Not op but there is some evidence emerging that women have an advantage in hiring in media and academia. https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/rethinking-sexism-in-science https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/rethinking-sexism-in-...
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
dragonwriter 11mo ago
Fortunately, these days, men who don't want to play by "the women's rules" are free to find (and even have legally recognized) companionship with other men with similar concerns.
- some_furry 11mo ago
  If only sexuality was a choice, I wouldn't have suffered as much in life. (Gay, single, in my 30's, heh.)