7 ms·

Mysterious holes in the Andes may have been an ancient marketplace

60 points by gmays 1y ago

standardUser 1y ago
I'm curious to what degree pre-Columbian civilizations aren't well understood due to the lack of evidence beyond our control, versus the lack of study/attention to the region. I imagine the dense and difficult terrain doesn't help either.
- r14c 1y ago
  A huge part of the problem is the whole "burning every Maya book" thing that some spanish dudes decided to embark on. Various ethnic cleansing campaigns over the last two centuries or so, not to mention the impact of disease. Its a real tragedy the colonizers didn't think to preserve the world they were conquering.
  - dreamcompiler 1y ago
    Modern Maya are starting to learn how to read and write their own language again but that only happened in the last 40 years or so. (They never forgot how to speak it.) Most of their written knowledge was lost forever as you point out.
    - gessha 1y ago
      Reboot magazine recently published an article about making a Mayan keyboard: https://joinreboot.org/p/how-to-build-a-mayan-keyboard https://joinreboot.org/p/how-to-build-a-mayan-keyboard
baggy_trough 1y ago
Just where I'd put a marketplace: in a large linear formation on top of a mountain ridge.
- lumost 1y ago
  There were a large number of of Incan markets at elevation in the Andes. If your civilization was built around the productivity of terrace farming - then people will be living at high elevation.
  - baggy_trough 1y ago
    What you describe has no relationship to the photos in the article.
- lostlogin 1y ago
  I mostly agree, it’s weird. However the region has little in the way of flat ground and the nice flat valley floor is very very flood prone.
- lovich 1y ago
  When the barbarians come to raid, it’s much easier to tip a rock over to stop them. “I have the high ground” became a meme because of the Star Wars prequels but it was a legitimate force multiplier. The US has a military strategy of air supremacy, notably different from air dominance, because of how easy it is to win when you can just let go of a rock and it’s guided to your enemy by gravity.
  - ramses0 1y ago
    You need to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"...
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - lovich 1y ago
      I don’t, libertarian ideals like that book die the first time they meet an organized group of bears[1] Also if I recall they were in underground cities in that book and not clinging to the edge of a mountainside like invaders would be doing in regards to the content of the original post [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-int...
DivingForGold 1y ago
Seems more like intentional basins to catch snow and hold the snowpack longer into the spring to keep the surrounding soil moist for crops nearby ?
Stevvo 1y ago
"Analyses of soil from the holes found ancient pollens of maize (corn), one of the most important staple crops in the Andes, and reeds that have traditionally been used over millennia for making baskets. These unexpected findings importantly indicate that people deposited plants in the holes, using woven baskets and/or bundles for transport." That's a stretch. All it indicates to me is that these people ate and they had woven baskets.
griffzhowl 1y ago
It does seem an unlikely place for a market: 13°42′59.9″S 75°52′28.46″W If there really were baskets of corn there, it seems more likely it was used for storage, and situated along the ridge not too far from the valley floor to protect the crops from floods and perhaps raids. Picture (a) in the article has a defensive settlement marked nearby. Still, a very enigmatic site
rurban 1y ago
Maybe he should have checked out Maria Reiche, because this doesn't pass the smell test. A marketplace would look totally different to a long band of holes. The storage theory looks more plausible
doodlebugging 1y ago
I read the article and decided to do a little looking around the area to see how everything stacked up so that I could decide for myself how the site was used. I used Google Earth and Street View to lay everything in the proper context geographically so that the reader can understand how it fits with the local cultural context. The site is located on a low ridge that is oriented roughly N-S on the north side of the Pisco River, an intermittent river in western Peru that drains from the mountains into the Pacific Ocean. The first screenshot shows the general geographical context. [0] [0] [Band-of-Holes-General-Geographical-Setting.png](https://postimg.cc/XpQ65nRJ https://postimg.cc/XpQ65nRJ) The Pisco River valley is located between the well-known Nazca Plain with it's geopglyphs and the less well-known Chincha Valley with it's geoglyphs. I found a nice paper detailing the thoughts about the origin and age of the geopglyphs in the Chincha Valley. It is a short paper that is interesting reading. [1] [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1406501111 https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1406501111 To get an idea of the local setting for the Band of Holes or Huella de la Serpiente as they are known locally which translates as Serpent Footprint I have another Google Earth screenshot that illustrates the location and it's proximity to a wide agricultural plain on either bank of the Pisco River. The Pisco River is an intermittent river, in fact in the Google Earth views there is no water behind the dam. It looks barren and a great place to avoid if there are flash floods in the forecast. The detailed view of the site is in this screenshot [2]. [2] [Band-of-Holes-Detailed-Geographical-Setting.png](https://postimg.cc/qgGsH7hx https://postimg.cc/qgGsH7hx) So that one can conclude as I did that the site was unlikely to have been used as a defensive feature and that it makes more sense for it to have been a local granary for the region's farmers I have a series of slides showing the site in map view and in street view. The first slide is zoomed into the site. [3] One can see the dark line of holes to the right of the thin yellow trace. At the southern end (the screenshot and most others are oriented N-S), we see a semicircular ridge that can be used to locate the site from a street level view. The locals call this the Huella de la Serpiente, probably because it looks a lot like the trace that a snake would leave across the open ground as it slithers. [3] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-Google-Earth-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/rz5h0cdR https://postimg.cc/rz5h0cdR) At the south end of the serpent track there is a feature that can assist locating the site in Google Street View, a high tension power line pylon. It is visible just below center just to the right of the end of the Band of Holes. It's shadow extends across the ground roughly towards the pickup truck parked near the irrigation canal. [4] This is probably the serpent's tail. [4] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-Google-Earth-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/MfGbFkD0 https://postimg.cc/MfGbFkD0) Looking up slope on Google Earth we can locate the serpent's head at the oval erosional feature. [5] The width of the Band of Holes is approximately 17 m (55.7 ft) from top to bottom though it does vary in places. [5] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-Head-Google-Earth-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/qz4dg17c https://postimg.cc/qz4dg17c) One can get an idea of the positioning of the Band of Holes along the ridge in the next Google Earth screenshot that is taken near the middle of the Huella de la Serpiente. You can see how it hugs the highest part of the low ridge on the western side of the divide where water would naturally flow into the channels either side of the ridge. [6] [6] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-line-Google-Earth-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/xcJFfHvM https://postimg.cc/xcJFfHvM) It may be difficult to understand the context of the site until you see it from ground level. That is what the next set of screenshots will provide, a Google Street View display taken from a location along the road just north of the river looking out across the agricultural fields on the valley floor. The first slide shows the ground level view from the road. [7] [7] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-street-view.png](https://postimg.cc/G4zD6g4q https://postimg.cc/G4zD6g4q) Since you may not auto-orient and instantly recognize the site from ground level without a bit of assistance I have labeled and noted relevant features for you. [8] [8] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-street-view-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/PvkNC1Lx https://postimg.cc/PvkNC1Lx) The final slide has been zoomed into the site so that it is easier to correlate the features noted in Google Earth Map View with things that are visible in Street View. [9] [9] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-street-view-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/Ln9LvMX8 https://postimg.cc/Ln9LvMX8) After seeing all of it in Street View it seems most likely that the site was a large granary where the farmers stored their grain for consumption and for next season's crops. It is likely that the grain and other products were stored in woven baskets that were sized to fit the holes along the ridge which seem to be consistently sized. With appropriate covers it could all be weather proof and durable while being protected from scavengers. That low ridge appears to me to serve no useful purpose as a defensive feature since it is one of many similar ridges in that valley. The ridge is not tall enough nor is it steep enough to be a hazard to climb and if it was used for storage, everything would be convenient to the fields across the Pisco River Valley. The fact that it is located in a wide spot in the valley makes it even more likely to have been used as a granary. I'm sure someone could come up with a volume of seed that could be stored in this collection of holes along the Huella de la Serpiente. That would help others understand how many people the site could feed or how many acres of seed crop could be planted. If you do this though, please do not list the volume in terms of Olympic sized swimming pools. Use something that would be more universally understood.

60 points by gmays 1y ago

I'm curious to what degree pre-Columbian civilizations aren't well understood due to the lack of evidence beyond our control, versus the lack of study/attention to the region. I imagine the dense and difficult terrain doesn't help either.

r14c 1y ago
A huge part of the problem is the whole "burning every Maya book" thing that some spanish dudes decided to embark on. Various ethnic cleansing campaigns over the last two centuries or so, not to mention the impact of disease. Its a real tragedy the colonizers didn't think to preserve the world they were conquering.
- dreamcompiler 1y ago
  Modern Maya are starting to learn how to read and write their own language again but that only happened in the last 40 years or so. (They never forgot how to speak it.) Most of their written knowledge was lost forever as you point out.
  - gessha 1y ago
    Reboot magazine recently published an article about making a Mayan keyboard: https://joinreboot.org/p/how-to-build-a-mayan-keyboard https://joinreboot.org/p/how-to-build-a-mayan-keyboard

baggy_trough 1y ago

Just where I'd put a marketplace: in a large linear formation on top of a mountain ridge.

lumost 1y ago
There were a large number of of Incan markets at elevation in the Andes. If your civilization was built around the productivity of terrace farming - then people will be living at high elevation.
- baggy_trough 1y ago
  What you describe has no relationship to the photos in the article.
lostlogin 1y ago
I mostly agree, it’s weird. However the region has little in the way of flat ground and the nice flat valley floor is very very flood prone.
lovich 1y ago
When the barbarians come to raid, it’s much easier to tip a rock over to stop them. “I have the high ground” became a meme because of the Star Wars prequels but it was a legitimate force multiplier. The US has a military strategy of air supremacy, notably different from air dominance, because of how easy it is to win when you can just let go of a rock and it’s guided to your enemy by gravity.
- ramses0 1y ago
  You need to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"...
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - lovich 1y ago
    I don’t, libertarian ideals like that book die the first time they meet an organized group of bears[1] Also if I recall they were in underground cities in that book and not clinging to the edge of a mountainside like invaders would be doing in regards to the content of the original post [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-int...

DivingForGold 1y ago

Seems more like intentional basins to catch snow and hold the snowpack longer into the spring to keep the surrounding soil moist for crops nearby ?

Stevvo 1y ago

"Analyses of soil from the holes found ancient pollens of maize (corn), one of the most important staple crops in the Andes, and reeds that have traditionally been used over millennia for making baskets. These unexpected findings importantly indicate that people deposited plants in the holes, using woven baskets and/or bundles for transport." That's a stretch. All it indicates to me is that these people ate and they had woven baskets.

griffzhowl 1y ago

It does seem an unlikely place for a market: 13°42′59.9″S 75°52′28.46″W If there really were baskets of corn there, it seems more likely it was used for storage, and situated along the ridge not too far from the valley floor to protect the crops from floods and perhaps raids. Picture (a) in the article has a defensive settlement marked nearby. Still, a very enigmatic site

rurban 1y ago

Maybe he should have checked out Maria Reiche, because this doesn't pass the smell test. A marketplace would look totally different to a long band of holes. The storage theory looks more plausible

doodlebugging 1y ago

I read the article and decided to do a little looking around the area to see how everything stacked up so that I could decide for myself how the site was used. I used Google Earth and Street View to lay everything in the proper context geographically so that the reader can understand how it fits with the local cultural context. The site is located on a low ridge that is oriented roughly N-S on the north side of the Pisco River, an intermittent river in western Peru that drains from the mountains into the Pacific Ocean. The first screenshot shows the general geographical context. [0] [0] [Band-of-Holes-General-Geographical-Setting.png](https://postimg.cc/XpQ65nRJ https://postimg.cc/XpQ65nRJ) The Pisco River valley is located between the well-known Nazca Plain with it's geopglyphs and the less well-known Chincha Valley with it's geoglyphs. I found a nice paper detailing the thoughts about the origin and age of the geopglyphs in the Chincha Valley. It is a short paper that is interesting reading. [1] [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1406501111 https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1406501111 To get an idea of the local setting for the Band of Holes or Huella de la Serpiente as they are known locally which translates as Serpent Footprint I have another Google Earth screenshot that illustrates the location and it's proximity to a wide agricultural plain on either bank of the Pisco River. The Pisco River is an intermittent river, in fact in the Google Earth views there is no water behind the dam. It looks barren and a great place to avoid if there are flash floods in the forecast. The detailed view of the site is in this screenshot [2]. [2] [Band-of-Holes-Detailed-Geographical-Setting.png](https://postimg.cc/qgGsH7hx https://postimg.cc/qgGsH7hx) So that one can conclude as I did that the site was unlikely to have been used as a defensive feature and that it makes more sense for it to have been a local granary for the region's farmers I have a series of slides showing the site in map view and in street view. The first slide is zoomed into the site. [3] One can see the dark line of holes to the right of the thin yellow trace. At the southern end (the screenshot and most others are oriented N-S), we see a semicircular ridge that can be used to locate the site from a street level view. The locals call this the Huella de la Serpiente, probably because it looks a lot like the trace that a snake would leave across the open ground as it slithers. [3] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-Google-Earth-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/rz5h0cdR https://postimg.cc/rz5h0cdR) At the south end of the serpent track there is a feature that can assist locating the site in Google Street View, a high tension power line pylon. It is visible just below center just to the right of the end of the Band of Holes. It's shadow extends across the ground roughly towards the pickup truck parked near the irrigation canal. [4] This is probably the serpent's tail. [4] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-Google-Earth-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/MfGbFkD0 https://postimg.cc/MfGbFkD0) Looking up slope on Google Earth we can locate the serpent's head at the oval erosional feature. [5] The width of the Band of Holes is approximately 17 m (55.7 ft) from top to bottom though it does vary in places. [5] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-Head-Google-Earth-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/qz4dg17c https://postimg.cc/qz4dg17c) One can get an idea of the positioning of the Band of Holes along the ridge in the next Google Earth screenshot that is taken near the middle of the Huella de la Serpiente. You can see how it hugs the highest part of the low ridge on the western side of the divide where water would naturally flow into the channels either side of the ridge. [6] [6] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-line-Google-Earth-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/xcJFfHvM https://postimg.cc/xcJFfHvM) It may be difficult to understand the context of the site until you see it from ground level. That is what the next set of screenshots will provide, a Google Street View display taken from a location along the road just north of the river looking out across the agricultural fields on the valley floor. The first slide shows the ground level view from the road. [7] [7] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-street-view.png](https://postimg.cc/G4zD6g4q https://postimg.cc/G4zD6g4q) Since you may not auto-orient and instantly recognize the site from ground level without a bit of assistance I have labeled and noted relevant features for you. [8] [8] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-street-view-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/PvkNC1Lx https://postimg.cc/PvkNC1Lx) The final slide has been zoomed into the site so that it is easier to correlate the features noted in Google Earth Map View with things that are visible in Street View. [9] [9] [Huella-de-la-serpiente-street-view-detail-annotated.png](https://postimg.cc/Ln9LvMX8 https://postimg.cc/Ln9LvMX8) After seeing all of it in Street View it seems most likely that the site was a large granary where the farmers stored their grain for consumption and for next season's crops. It is likely that the grain and other products were stored in woven baskets that were sized to fit the holes along the ridge which seem to be consistently sized. With appropriate covers it could all be weather proof and durable while being protected from scavengers. That low ridge appears to me to serve no useful purpose as a defensive feature since it is one of many similar ridges in that valley. The ridge is not tall enough nor is it steep enough to be a hazard to climb and if it was used for storage, everything would be convenient to the fields across the Pisco River Valley. The fact that it is located in a wide spot in the valley makes it even more likely to have been used as a granary. I'm sure someone could come up with a volume of seed that could be stored in this collection of holes along the Huella de la Serpiente. That would help others understand how many people the site could feed or how many acres of seed crop could be planted. If you do this though, please do not list the volume in terms of Olympic sized swimming pools. Use something that would be more universally understood.