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'"Working in trade" had a low social status' I think the push in the 90's to drive everyone to university also had a big negative impact on the status of 'work

'"Working in trade" had a low social status' I think the push in the 90's to drive everyone to university also had a big negative impact on the status of 'working in the trades'.

jack_tripper 11mo ago
Don't worry, this trend has been in reverse the past couple of years.
- zdragnar 11mo ago
  I don't know about the UK, but in the US this is only half true. Degree-requiring jobs still have better social status over trades and low/no skill work, at least from a "what do you want to be when you grow up" point of view. However, many more people than previously are skeptical of the math behind the cost of a college degree. Going into significant debt only to find a field flooded with others, competing with overly ambitious expectations for AI, and it's much harder to see the value in becoming a desk jockey at big corp versus becoming a plumber or field tech, or welder. I'm sure someone will point out the math still works in favor of getting a degree, but I'm not really the one that needs convincing. The local state flagship public university has $18k listed for annual tuition for residents of the state, and double that if you're from out of state. Add in their estimates for books, housing, food, and a surcharge for computer science majors, and you're looking at $40k for the 2025-26 school year... $160k worth of debt for a 4 year degree, at a public school, with nothing but a piece of paper and a bad economy to greet you on the other end. Conversely, trade schools in the same city offer $8k tuition for a full 20 accreditation course load, no book costs, and no mandatory dormitory stays. You'll spend the rest of the time probably in a lower paid apprenticeship, especially if you do go for being an electrician or something similar, so it isn't all roses.
  - bad_haircut72 11mo ago
    Theres simply no reason why college is as expensive as it is. The cynic in me says price increases are about setting up class boundaries and pushing people back into the necessary but less desirable factory/trade jobs of previous generations
    - variadix 11mo ago
      Government backed loans inflate demand. If banks had to consider the risk of repayment prices would come back to reality.
      - nradov 11mo ago
        Colleges should be on the hook for a least a portion of defaulted student loans. That would give them a direct incentive to hold down tuition.
        theoreticalmal 11mo ago
        Is defaulting on student loans possible? I thought, at least in USA, the only way to get out of student loans is: pay it off, work for a qualified nonprofit for awhile, or die
    - nradov 11mo ago
      There's no class warfare grand conspiracy going on. Like any businesses, colleges charge more because they can. Customers have been willing to pay, and the availability of government subsidized student loans made those customers relatively price insensitive. That model is finally starting to break. To be fair to colleges, their costs have also increased somewhat. Baumol’s Cost Disease means that it's impossible to achieve significant productivity gains in education and so labor costs continuously increase. But that only accounts for a fraction of the total increase in college tuitions and fees. https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/diagnosing-william-baumols-cost-disease https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/diagnosing-william-baumo...
      - schmidtleonard 11mo ago
        "It's not a war because side X won" is truly one of the arguments of all time.
        nradov 11mo ago
        You're really missing the point. The college administrators who make those decisions are well paid but generally not wealthy or true members of the upper class.
  - boplicity 11mo ago
    The state school I went to 20+ years ago, by contrast, has around $10k in annual tuition, which isn't bad compared to a trade school. No mandatory housing/food costs either. I got a great education there and am still friends with some of my profs. I also got one of the least practical (for most people) degrees (creative writing), and turned it into a comfortable job for myself, though I recognize that's the exception and not the rule. I never thought of university as a way to get a job. It certainly did help me in many, many ways though, and can't imagine having my current career without it.

'"Working in trade" had a low social status' I think the push in the 90's to drive everyone to university also had a big negative impact on the status of 'working in the trades'.

jack_tripper 11mo ago

Don't worry, this trend has been in reverse the past couple of years.

zdragnar 11mo ago
I don't know about the UK, but in the US this is only half true. Degree-requiring jobs still have better social status over trades and low/no skill work, at least from a "what do you want to be when you grow up" point of view. However, many more people than previously are skeptical of the math behind the cost of a college degree. Going into significant debt only to find a field flooded with others, competing with overly ambitious expectations for AI, and it's much harder to see the value in becoming a desk jockey at big corp versus becoming a plumber or field tech, or welder. I'm sure someone will point out the math still works in favor of getting a degree, but I'm not really the one that needs convincing. The local state flagship public university has $18k listed for annual tuition for residents of the state, and double that if you're from out of state. Add in their estimates for books, housing, food, and a surcharge for computer science majors, and you're looking at $40k for the 2025-26 school year... $160k worth of debt for a 4 year degree, at a public school, with nothing but a piece of paper and a bad economy to greet you on the other end. Conversely, trade schools in the same city offer $8k tuition for a full 20 accreditation course load, no book costs, and no mandatory dormitory stays. You'll spend the rest of the time probably in a lower paid apprenticeship, especially if you do go for being an electrician or something similar, so it isn't all roses.
- bad_haircut72 11mo ago
  Theres simply no reason why college is as expensive as it is. The cynic in me says price increases are about setting up class boundaries and pushing people back into the necessary but less desirable factory/trade jobs of previous generations
  - variadix 11mo ago
    Government backed loans inflate demand. If banks had to consider the risk of repayment prices would come back to reality.
    - nradov 11mo ago
      Colleges should be on the hook for a least a portion of defaulted student loans. That would give them a direct incentive to hold down tuition.
      - theoreticalmal 11mo ago
        Is defaulting on student loans possible? I thought, at least in USA, the only way to get out of student loans is: pay it off, work for a qualified nonprofit for awhile, or die
  - nradov 11mo ago
    There's no class warfare grand conspiracy going on. Like any businesses, colleges charge more because they can. Customers have been willing to pay, and the availability of government subsidized student loans made those customers relatively price insensitive. That model is finally starting to break. To be fair to colleges, their costs have also increased somewhat. Baumol’s Cost Disease means that it's impossible to achieve significant productivity gains in education and so labor costs continuously increase. But that only accounts for a fraction of the total increase in college tuitions and fees. https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/diagnosing-william-baumols-cost-disease https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/diagnosing-william-baumo...
    - schmidtleonard 11mo ago
      "It's not a war because side X won" is truly one of the arguments of all time.
      - nradov 11mo ago
        You're really missing the point. The college administrators who make those decisions are well paid but generally not wealthy or true members of the upper class.
- boplicity 11mo ago
  The state school I went to 20+ years ago, by contrast, has around $10k in annual tuition, which isn't bad compared to a trade school. No mandatory housing/food costs either. I got a great education there and am still friends with some of my profs. I also got one of the least practical (for most people) degrees (creative writing), and turned it into a comfortable job for myself, though I recognize that's the exception and not the rule. I never thought of university as a way to get a job. It certainly did help me in many, many ways though, and can't imagine having my current career without it.