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I'm strongly against the removal of XSLT support from browsers—I use both the JavaScript "XSLTProcessor" functions [0] and "<?xml-stylesheet …?>" [1] on my pers

I'm strongly against the removal of XSLT support from browsers—I use both the JavaScript "XSLTProcessor" functions [0] and "<?xml-stylesheet …?>" [1] on my personal website, I commented on the original GitHub thread [2], and I use XSLT for non-web purposes [3]. But I think that this website is being hyperbolic: I believe that Google's stated security/maintenance justifications are genuine (but wildly misguided), and I certainly don't believe that Google is paying Mozilla/Apple to drop XSLT support. I'm all in favour of trying to preserve XSLT support, but a page like this is more likely to annoy the decision-makers than to convince them to not remove XSLT support. [0]: https://www.maxchernoff.ca/tools/Stardew-Valley-Item-Finder/ https://www.maxchernoff.ca/tools/Stardew-Valley-Item-Finder/ [1]: https://www.maxchernoff.ca/atom.xml https://www.maxchernoff.ca/atom.xml [2]: https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/11563#issuecomment-3190981127 https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/11563#issuecomment-31909... [3]: https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/lua-widow-control/blob/852ecb86/tests/transform.xslt https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/lua-widow-control/blob/852...

coldtea 1y ago
>I use both the JavaScript "XSLTProcessor" functions [0] and "<?xml-stylesheet …?>" [1] on my personal website You are on some very very small elite team of web standards users then
- einpoklum 1y ago
  FYI: Many Firefox and Thunderbird extensions use <?xml-stylesheet?> . Perhaps not XSLTProcessor though.
  - mimasama 1y ago
    WebExtensions still have them? I thought the move to HTML (for better or worse) would've killed that. Even install.rdf got replaced IIRC so there shouldn't be much traces of XML in the new extensions system...
- ndriscoll 1y ago
  Small, sure, but not elite. xml-stylesheet is by far the easiest way to make a simple templated website full of static pages. You almost could not make it any simpler.
littlestymaar 1y ago
> but a page like this is more likely to annoy the decision-makers than to convince them to not remove XSLT support. You cannot “convince decision-makers” with a webpage anyway. The goal of this one is to raise awareness on the topic, which is pretty much the only thing you can do with a mere webpage.
- bawolff 1y ago
  For some reason people seem to think raising awareness is all you need to do. That only works if people already generally agree with you on the issue. Want to save endangered animals? raising awareness is great. However if you're on an issue where people are generally aware but unconvinced, raising more awareness does not help. Having better arguments might.
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    > For some reason people seem to think raising awareness is all you need to do. I don't think many do. It's just that raising awareness is the first step (and likely the only one you'll ever see anyway, because for most topics you aren't in a position where convincing *you* in particular has any impact).
    - bawolff 1y ago
      Convincing me personally does not have any impact. Convincing people like me, in mass, does.
      - littlestymaar 1y ago
        A mass doesn't move because it's convinced (i.e. rationally) of something, but because they are emotionally impacted. Rational arguments come later, and mostly behind closed doors.
        bawolff 1y ago
        Sure, but translating that movement to actual policy change usually depends on how much uninvolved people are sympathetic to the protestors, which usually involves how rational the protestors are precieved as. Decision makers are affected by public sentiment, but public sentiment of the uninvolved public generally carries more weight. Thats why the other side usually try to smear protests as being crazy mobs who would never be happy. The moment you convince uninvolved people of this, the protestors lose most power. > Rational arguments come later, and mostly behind closed doors. I disagree with this. Rational arguments behind closed doors happen before resorting to protest not after. If you're resorting to protest you are trying to leverage public support into a more powerful position. That's about how much power you have not the soundness of your argument.
IshKebab 1y ago
> but wildly misguided Why? Last time this came up the consensus was that libxstl was barely maintained and never intended to be used in a secure context and full of bugs. I'm full in favour of removing such insecure features that barely anyone uses. I think if the XSLT people really wanted to save it the best thing to do would have been to write a replacement in Rust. But good luck with that.
- rhdunn 1y ago
  libxslt != XSLT. It's like removing JPEG support because libjpg is insecure!
  - jeltz 1y ago
    Which would be a totally sensible thing you do. Especially if jpeg was a rarely used image format with few libraries supporting it, the main one being unmaintained.
    - nflekkhnnn 1y ago
      Google is on a trajectory to replace jpeg with webp, haven’t you noticed?
  - TingPing 1y ago
    If this were true you could fix this today with the other library. That library is the only implementation used and it’s features are relied upon.
    - chrismorgan 1y ago
      Firefox doesn’t use libxslt. I presume IE didn’t either. It’s only WebKit-heritage browsers that use libxslt.
      - TingPing 1y ago
        TIL about Firefox. They have their own in-tree solution. Very interesting but not trivial to use for external projects.
f33d5173 1y ago
>But I think that this website is being hyperbolic Intentionally in a humourous way, yes
- glenstein 1y ago
  I think also literally, independent of the cheeky tone. Where it lost me was: >RSS is used to syndicate NEWS and by killing it Google can control the media. XSLT is used worldwide by multiple government sites. Google are now trying to control LEGISLATION. With these technologies removed what is stopping Google? I mean yes Google lobbies, and certainly can lobby for bad things. And though I personally didn't know much of anything about XSLT, I from reading a bit about it I certainly am ready to accept the premise that we want it. But... is Google lobbying for an XSLT law? Does "control legislation" mean deprecate a tool for publishing info on government sites? I actually love the cheeky style overall, would say it's a brilliant signature style to get attention, but I think this implying this is tied to a campaign to control laws is rhetorical overreach even by its own intentionally cheeky standards.
  - degamad 1y ago
    > Does "control legislation" mean deprecate a tool for publishing info on government sites? I believe the intended meaning, in context, is "... for publishing the literal text of laws on government sites".
    - glenstein 1y ago
      Right, my quote and your clarification are saying the same thing (at least that's what I had in mind when I wrote that). But that leaves us back where we started because characterizing that as "control the laws" is an instance of the the rhetorical overreach I'm talking about, strongly implying something like literal control over the policy making process.
      - necovek 1y ago
        Laws that are designed to help you but you can't easily access, or laws that are designed to control/restrict you and that get shoved in your face: once you manage "consumption" of laws, you can push your agenda too. At least, this is how I read that part.
bazoom42 1y ago
Can’t you just do the xslt transformation server-side? Then you can use the newest and best xslt tools, and the output will work in any browser, even browsers that never had any built-in xslt support.
- gucci-on-fleek 1y ago
  > Cant you just do the xslt transformation server-side? For my Atom feed, sure. I'm already special-casing browsers for my Atom feed [0], so it wouldn't really be too difficult to modify that to just return HTML instead. And as others mentioned, you can style RSS/Atom directly with CSS [1]. For my Stardew Valley Item Finder web app, no. I specifically designed that web app to work offline (as an installable PWA), so anything server-side won't work. I'll probably end up adding the JS/wasm polyfill [2] to that when Chrome finally removes support, but the web app previously had zero dependencies, so I'm a little bit annoyed that I'll have to add a 2MB dependency. [0]: https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/maxchernoff.ca/blob/8d3538b4/web/caddy/etc/base.caddyfile#L229-L236 https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/maxchernoff.ca/blob/8d3538... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45874305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45874305 [2]: https://github.com/mfreed7/xslt_polyfill https://github.com/mfreed7/xslt_polyfill
- mmis1000 1y ago
  That is actually mozilla's stand in the linked issue except it's on client though. They would rather replace it with some non native replacement (So there is no surprising security issue anymore) if remove directly is impractical. There is actually a example of such situation. Mozilla removed adobe pdf plugin support a long time ago and replaced it with pdf.js. It's still a slight performance regression for very giant pdf. But it is enough for most use case. But the bottom line is "it's actually worth to do it because people are using it". They won't actively support a feature that little people use because they don't have the people to support it.
  - wombatpm 1y ago
    > They won't actively support a feature that little people use because they don't have the people to support it. Companies always cut too deep. If only they were making enough money to properly support Chrome. /sarcasm

coldtea 1y ago

>I use both the JavaScript "XSLTProcessor" functions [0] and "<?xml-stylesheet …?>" [1] on my personal website You are on some very very small elite team of web standards users then

einpoklum 1y ago
FYI: Many Firefox and Thunderbird extensions use <?xml-stylesheet?> . Perhaps not XSLTProcessor though.
- mimasama 1y ago
  WebExtensions still have them? I thought the move to HTML (for better or worse) would've killed that. Even install.rdf got replaced IIRC so there shouldn't be much traces of XML in the new extensions system...
ndriscoll 1y ago
Small, sure, but not elite. xml-stylesheet is by far the easiest way to make a simple templated website full of static pages. You almost could not make it any simpler.

littlestymaar 1y ago

> but a page like this is more likely to annoy the decision-makers than to convince them to not remove XSLT support. You cannot “convince decision-makers” with a webpage anyway. The goal of this one is to raise awareness on the topic, which is pretty much the only thing you can do with a mere webpage.

bawolff 1y ago
For some reason people seem to think raising awareness is all you need to do. That only works if people already generally agree with you on the issue. Want to save endangered animals? raising awareness is great. However if you're on an issue where people are generally aware but unconvinced, raising more awareness does not help. Having better arguments might.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  > For some reason people seem to think raising awareness is all you need to do. I don't think many do. It's just that raising awareness is the first step (and likely the only one you'll ever see anyway, because for most topics you aren't in a position where convincing *you* in particular has any impact).
  - bawolff 1y ago
    Convincing me personally does not have any impact. Convincing people like me, in mass, does.
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      A mass doesn't move because it's convinced (i.e. rationally) of something, but because they are emotionally impacted. Rational arguments come later, and mostly behind closed doors.
      - bawolff 1y ago
        Sure, but translating that movement to actual policy change usually depends on how much uninvolved people are sympathetic to the protestors, which usually involves how rational the protestors are precieved as. Decision makers are affected by public sentiment, but public sentiment of the uninvolved public generally carries more weight. Thats why the other side usually try to smear protests as being crazy mobs who would never be happy. The moment you convince uninvolved people of this, the protestors lose most power. > Rational arguments come later, and mostly behind closed doors. I disagree with this. Rational arguments behind closed doors happen before resorting to protest not after. If you're resorting to protest you are trying to leverage public support into a more powerful position. That's about how much power you have not the soundness of your argument.

IshKebab 1y ago

> but wildly misguided Why? Last time this came up the consensus was that libxstl was barely maintained and never intended to be used in a secure context and full of bugs. I'm full in favour of removing such insecure features that barely anyone uses. I think if the XSLT people really wanted to save it the best thing to do would have been to write a replacement in Rust. But good luck with that.

rhdunn 1y ago
libxslt != XSLT. It's like removing JPEG support because libjpg is insecure!
- jeltz 1y ago
  Which would be a totally sensible thing you do. Especially if jpeg was a rarely used image format with few libraries supporting it, the main one being unmaintained.
  - nflekkhnnn 1y ago
    Google is on a trajectory to replace jpeg with webp, haven’t you noticed?
- TingPing 1y ago
  If this were true you could fix this today with the other library. That library is the only implementation used and it’s features are relied upon.
  - chrismorgan 1y ago
    Firefox doesn’t use libxslt. I presume IE didn’t either. It’s only WebKit-heritage browsers that use libxslt.
    - TingPing 1y ago
      TIL about Firefox. They have their own in-tree solution. Very interesting but not trivial to use for external projects.

f33d5173 1y ago

>But I think that this website is being hyperbolic Intentionally in a humourous way, yes

glenstein 1y ago
I think also literally, independent of the cheeky tone. Where it lost me was: >RSS is used to syndicate NEWS and by killing it Google can control the media. XSLT is used worldwide by multiple government sites. Google are now trying to control LEGISLATION. With these technologies removed what is stopping Google? I mean yes Google lobbies, and certainly can lobby for bad things. And though I personally didn't know much of anything about XSLT, I from reading a bit about it I certainly am ready to accept the premise that we want it. But... is Google lobbying for an XSLT law? Does "control legislation" mean deprecate a tool for publishing info on government sites? I actually love the cheeky style overall, would say it's a brilliant signature style to get attention, but I think this implying this is tied to a campaign to control laws is rhetorical overreach even by its own intentionally cheeky standards.
- degamad 1y ago
  > Does "control legislation" mean deprecate a tool for publishing info on government sites? I believe the intended meaning, in context, is "... for publishing the literal text of laws on government sites".
  - glenstein 1y ago
    Right, my quote and your clarification are saying the same thing (at least that's what I had in mind when I wrote that). But that leaves us back where we started because characterizing that as "control the laws" is an instance of the the rhetorical overreach I'm talking about, strongly implying something like literal control over the policy making process.
    - necovek 1y ago
      Laws that are designed to help you but you can't easily access, or laws that are designed to control/restrict you and that get shoved in your face: once you manage "consumption" of laws, you can push your agenda too. At least, this is how I read that part.

bazoom42 1y ago

Can’t you just do the xslt transformation server-side? Then you can use the newest and best xslt tools, and the output will work in any browser, even browsers that never had any built-in xslt support.

gucci-on-fleek 1y ago
> Cant you just do the xslt transformation server-side? For my Atom feed, sure. I'm already special-casing browsers for my Atom feed [0], so it wouldn't really be too difficult to modify that to just return HTML instead. And as others mentioned, you can style RSS/Atom directly with CSS [1]. For my Stardew Valley Item Finder web app, no. I specifically designed that web app to work offline (as an installable PWA), so anything server-side won't work. I'll probably end up adding the JS/wasm polyfill [2] to that when Chrome finally removes support, but the web app previously had zero dependencies, so I'm a little bit annoyed that I'll have to add a 2MB dependency. [0]: https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/maxchernoff.ca/blob/8d3538b4/web/caddy/etc/base.caddyfile#L229-L236 https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/maxchernoff.ca/blob/8d3538... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45874305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45874305 [2]: https://github.com/mfreed7/xslt_polyfill https://github.com/mfreed7/xslt_polyfill
mmis1000 1y ago
That is actually mozilla's stand in the linked issue except it's on client though. They would rather replace it with some non native replacement (So there is no surprising security issue anymore) if remove directly is impractical. There is actually a example of such situation. Mozilla removed adobe pdf plugin support a long time ago and replaced it with pdf.js. It's still a slight performance regression for very giant pdf. But it is enough for most use case. But the bottom line is "it's actually worth to do it because people are using it". They won't actively support a feature that little people use because they don't have the people to support it.
- wombatpm 1y ago
  > They won't actively support a feature that little people use because they don't have the people to support it. Companies always cut too deep. If only they were making enough money to properly support Chrome. /sarcasm