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I've been really sad to see Python's stance on this. It really shows that management is out of touch with reality.
by mlindner 11mo ago
I've been really sad to see Python's stance on this. It really shows that management is out of touch with reality.
- scuff3d 11mo agoGod forbid they stand up for people and fight for an inclusive work environment. How dare they!
- userbinator 11mo agoInclusive of idiocy? Software quality has been on a downhill trend that's steepened noticeably in the past ~15 years. Doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and see what's really happening but they'd rather we ignore the politically inconvenient elephant in the room. Your downvotes don't matter, we see the truth regardless.
- yoyohello13 11mo ago[flagged]
- userbinator 11mo agoThere have always even been black women developers, perhaps not as many as the DEI-brainwashed would like, but that's fine because they're actually competent regardless of who they are.
- yoyohello13 11mo agoThe narrative that DEI causes unqualified people to be hired is just false fear-mongering. I’ve been on several university hiring committees and the guidelines were always “if two candidates are equally qualified 1. Hire the veteran 2. Hire the minority” if a hiring committee chooses an unqualified individual to do a job that’s on them. No proponent of DEI I’ve ever talked to in real life has said we should hire unqualified people to meet some quota.
- machomaster 11mo agoAnd yet this constantly happens. "Major companies added more than 320,000 jobs to their U.S. workforces in 2021, and 94% of those went to people of color, according to Bloomberg."
- defrost 11mo agoIt's considerably more often and vastly worse if you quote according to The Daily Stormer. How are the actual stats of employed in the trenches and in the C-Suites?
- machomaster 11mo agoFunny how Bloomberg becomes The Daily Storm as soon as you don't like the facts and stats. :-D Please, make Google and AI your friend.
- defrost 11mo agoThese are the tools you recommend for reinforcing hallicinations and the stories you like? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45876744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45876744
- tristan957 11mo agoThis statistic means nothing without further context.
- machomaster 11mo agoThe explosion of DEI discrimination is the context you need.
- shadowgovt 11mo agoYour response, "And yet this constantly happens," in context to the previous post seems to imply 'this' should be 'hiring of unqualified people.' The assertion that 94% of people hired were non-white does not immediately imply they were unqualified without further context.
- wiml 11mo agoAre you saying you think trans people are causing software quality to decrease? How exactly? Please state your belief clearly.
- userbinator 11mo agoNo, it's the focus on whatever rainbow-coloured culture war crap that has nothing to do with software engineering that's creating a distraction and allowing incompetence to thrive. I don't care if developers are cis trans black white male female or dogs[1] if they are competent. But there seems to be a recent trend of some who cry discrimination when their sub-par work is called out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_...
- brendoelfrendo 11mo agoYeah, it's usually white guys complaining that they got passed over for some trans person or whatever who insist that there's discrimination when they get called out for sub-par work.
- terminatornet 11mo ago> But there seems to be a recent trend of some who cry discrimination when their sub-par work is called out. This sounds like you worked with or heard about 1 trans person who did shoddy work and now it's a "recent trend" that all trans software devs are saying it's discrimination.
- JuniperMesos 11mo agoI actually think that part of the increased prevalence of trans women (i.e. AMAB people who identify as women) in the software industry, is AMAB people who would otherwise be considered men for DEI purposes changing their own conception of their own gender in a way that would make them be counted as women for DEI purposes. I don't think this is the only thing driving gender transition in a general sense, but I know a fair number of trans women and other AMAB genderqueer people in programming-adjacent spaces, and I suspect that the general cultural currents that incentivize gender-based DEI programs also affect people who are otherwise gender-questioning in some fashion. ---- "The doctors are sympathetic, and I think some of them even understand—regardless, they can offer no solace beyond the chemical. They are too kind to resent, but my envy is palpable. One, a trans woman, is especially gentle; perhaps because her own frustrations mirror mine, our cognitive distance sabotaging her authenticity." - https://ctrlcreep.substack.com/p/knowing-ones-place https://ctrlcreep.substack.com/p/knowing-ones-place
- VerminOctopus1 11mo agoPlease put two and two together for the rest of us clowns who can’t quite figure it out. State your beliefs plainly so we can come up with some solutions.
- catlover76 11mo ago[dead]
- scuff3d 11mo ago... What? So your assertion is that trans people, gay people, people of color, and women are inherently worse at engineering jobs then straight white men, and companies/institutions that hire them are somehow producing worse software? Ignoring all other economic and technological trends that have materialized over the last two decades? Also, just for the record, some of the most brilliant engineers I have worked with in my time fall into many of those categories.
- wakawaka28 11mo agoJumping in here. Nobody (or almost nobody) is saying that these demographics are inherently worse engineers. But the policies to promote them are inherently discriminatory. You can't promote people based on what they look like without compromising on other attributes like skill. There are companies out there literally saying "We need less white people" and listing off every possible demographic as "welcome" except for white men, in the job posting.
- scuff3d 11mo agoCare to link to a few? Every single one of these policies that I've seen over the last 20 years, including my role as a hiring manager in my past career, were aimed at leveling the playing field and providing equal opportunities to people who aren't in the majority. The only effect I've seen is that now people who look like me actually have to compete with others. Edit: For the record I'm asking for links from reputable companies who would realistically be setting the tone for the industry. Not some random ass listing for contract work.
- wakawaka28 11mo agoThis outlines 3 separate lawsuits against IBM over this: https://lunduke.locals.com/post/6465642/3-anti-white-discrimination-lawsuits-pending-against-ibm-red-hat https://lunduke.locals.com/post/6465642/3-anti-white-discrim... Other companies I can think of are Google and Microsoft. Many huge open-source projects have openly promoted specific racial outcomes. I might dig up links later but if you actually care about this stuff, Lunduke is a great source of references. >Every single one of these policies that I've seen over the last 20 years, including my role as a hiring manager in my past career, were aimed at leveling the playing field and providing equal opportunities to people who aren't in the majority. That is how it's sold, but in practice it means you have to turn down perfectly good white people (especially white men) to get arbitrary demographic outcomes. If 13% of the population is black and almost none of them study engineering, you won't be able to get 13% representation without passing up on better white candidates. The same can be said about women and other minorities. Different demographics have different preferences and that is reflected in what they study and how hard they work at it. Yet we are supposed to think there is something nefarious if there is even a minor discrepancy in outcomes. Give me a break. This isn't the 1950s. Nobody would risk discriminating against a minority because it could cause a lawsuit. But discrimination against whites and men is not treated the same way, even when it can be proved positively. One of those 3 lawsuits against IBM was dismissed by an activist judge with a one-sentence non-explanation for example. If you complain about this stuff publicly your career is going to be damaged and everyone will at best think you are a bad sport.
- Ancapistani 11mo ago“Inclusive” - meanwhile, I’ve not felt comfortable at a PSF-sponsored event since 2013, when people started losing their jobs for barely off-color jokes… and for reporting them.
- scuff3d 11mo agoYou're saying you feel excluded because you can't tell racist jokes?
- machomaster 11mo agoChilling effect of the witch hunt by political activists tends to make people be and feel excluded.
- scuff3d 11mo agoBecause you can't tell racist jokes?
- InvertedRhodium 11mo agoConstantly waking on eggshells that anything you say could be misinterpreted to be offensive and have career ending repercussions is exhausting. Now, go on, parrot the same question again. Surely you’ll bait someone into accepting your framing of the issue sooner or later.
- scuff3d 11mo agoWhat is it that you say on a regular basis that makes you feel like you need to walk on eggshells? As I've said many times in the comments. I have 20+ years experience working for corporations. All through the me too wave, the increase focus on DE&I, and the general move to try and be less exclusionary. I've worked with woman, gay people, trans, and people of just about every ethnicity you could think of. Never once, in all those years, have I ever feared for my job or felt excluded. Literally the only people I have ever heard complain are the ones I know for a fact tell racist and sexist jokes because they always felt comfortable enough around me to tell them. If the fact that we are a bit more mindful about being racist and sexist in the work place bothers you, I think you may need to look inward at your own behavior. Not outward.
- gitaarik 11mo agoIt might just be useless. Maybe 50% of woman are not as interested in the same topics as 50% of the man. Maybe it's ok and natural that man and woman have other talents / interests / perception / interpretation of things etc. Maybe we can appreciate our differences instead of forcefully trying to mold everything into the same shape?
- scuff3d 11mo agoThese policies aren't about perfectly equal representation. It's about equal opportunity. That women you want to do the job get equal opportunities to men.
- zahlman 11mo agoThey already had, from the perspective of the organization, equal opportunities before the policies in question were enacted.
- shadowgovt 11mo agoDidn't James Damore get himself fired "just asking these questions" at Google?
- ryan_lane 11mo ago"Just asking questions" sounds innocent until you see that the questions being asked have insinuations behind them. He was asking questions that implied that women and non-white people are less intelligent. Phrasing outright racism/sexism in the form of a question seems to make it OK with other folks who tend to share the same mindset, but it isn't (and shouldn't be) effective in the workplace. The devil doesn't need an advocate; especially not in a workplace.
- zahlman 11mo ago> He was asking questions that implied that women and non-white people are less intelligent. His questions did not carry any such implication and that is a blatant misrepresentation of the argument he was making. I've been over this so many times in the past and I keep being told that the words I read don't mean what they very obviously mean. (I'm accustomed to that being called "gaslighting" when it goes the other way, inaccurate as that is.)
- zahlman 11mo agoThe paid staff are, broadly speaking, the ones enforcing the rules (and making PyCon happen). Almost all the actual development is on a volunteer basis, with people operating remotely and submitting PRs to GitHub (where the only people who ever act unprofessional are annoyed bug reporters). What "work environment"?
- shadowgovt 11mo agoI think "The US government is too unpredictable at this time to be a trustworthy source of funding" is actually pretty in-touch with reality, unfortunately.