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> This post has been flagged and hidden, just demonstrating how much this country wants to pretend this isn't happening It’s so sad to see HN taking the side o

> This post has been flagged and hidden, just demonstrating how much this country wants to pretend this isn't happening It’s so sad to see HN taking the side of violence and oppression with their “head in the sand” approach. I wonder how different the HN overlords would feel if their own families were being torn apart. This is Disgraceful and inexcusable. The shame. The only reason this is not currently flagged to oblivion is because it’s the weekend crowd.

lurk2 1y ago
[flagged]
- testing22321 1y ago
  There are plenty of legal US citizens being abducted. From TFA: US citizens, including women and children, were grabbed from their beds, marched outside without even a chance to dress, zip-tied, and loaded into vans.
  - lurk2 1y ago
    If we assume the reporting in the linked video was accurate, you’re at most talking about unlawful detention and 4th amendment violations. No one with legal status to reside in the country was reported to have disappeared in the way you are implying.
    - testing22321 1y ago
      You’re fine with this? Totally cool when this happens to you and your family?
      - lurk2 1y ago
        [flagged]
      - lurk2 1y ago
        I’m not at all worried about my family being deported for the simple reason that they have legal status to reside in the places where they reside. I wouldn’t have approached it the same way, but for the sole reason that you end up with citizens being inconvenienced. This post wasn’t about citizens having their rights infringed upon, though; it’s obvious from the editorializing that the author does not believe that America has any fundamental right to sovereignty. The author’s primary concern (and yours, I would venture) is ensuring that foreign nationals are not molested as they continue to reside and work within the United States illegally. -
        testing22321 1y ago
        You couldn’t be more wrong. That is absolutely not my primary concern. It’s not a concern at all.
        lurk2 1y ago
        So you believe that America has a fundamental right to enforce its immigration laws, and that enforcement of those laws is permissible provided that such enforcement occurs within whatever bounds you deem to be humane, and your only objection to these activities is their real or potential impact on the civil rights of American citizens?
        ozozozd 1y ago
        Pretty obviously. In fact, you defined a pretty good standard with the exception of the snark about what the OP deems humane - not deporting to an overcrowded prison in a 3rd country can’t be that hard to agree on. All evidenced by the fact that higher deportation numbers during Obama created no uproar. You think it’s coz Obama was handsome or smtg?
        lurk2 1y ago
        > Pretty obviously. You're telling me it's obvious but I still don't think that you'd agree with the statement that: "your only objection to these activities is their real or potential impact on the civil rights of American citizens." If the infrastructure was in place to ensure each of these cases was thoroughly reviewed (for example, to address refugee claimant status), would you object to the deportation of absolutely all foreign nationals illegally residing in the United States? I have a hunch that the answer is no, and even if it were yes, I don't think it's obvious from the language used in this thread that attitudes towards this issue are stemming from a Ron Paul style concern over the fate of the American Republic and its civil liberties. From the language used, it seems far more likely that these people see immigration law as basically illegitimate, and that their policy position is whatever enables the largest number of illegal residents to remain in the country. > In fact, you defined a pretty good standard with the exception of the snark about what the OP deems humane You're reading into the comment. His own standard of what he deems humane would obviously be a prerequisite for him to deem the practices acceptable. Given the inane comment you made about another one of my comments being "plainly illogical" I would request that you keep to the issues and stop tone policing. > - not deporting to an overcrowded prison in a 3rd country can’t be that hard to agree on. Evidently not. It's not the most effective policy (which would be targeting employers), but if you don't imprison repeat offenders, the incentive will always be there to try again. For as many of the sob stories you're seeing about a father of six getting deported after working diligently for 30 years as an unlicensed carpenter, there are a dozen guys getting caught at the Home Deport parking lot who will be back in the country within the year. Deportation to these people is an inconvenience, not a Greek tragedy, and the only way you could really dissuade them from it would be incarcerating them so that the penalty is some period where they know they aren't going to have any earnings. > All evidenced by the fact that higher deportation numbers during Obama created no uproar. You think it’s coz Obama was handsome or smtg? Obama's higher deportation numbers were largely the result of changes to the definition of what constituted a deportation.
lurk2 1y ago
[flagged]
- ozozozd 1y ago
  OP mentions US citizens being detained. Commenter is wondering how other US citizens supporting such activities would feel if their family was detained similarly. Unless you’re talking about citizens of another country that are in favor of these deportations, your comment is plainly illogical.
  - lurk2 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - nobody9999 1y ago
      >The number of times this has happened has not been 0, but in terms of documented instances, you're not talking about a very large group of people. "you're not talking about a very large group of people"? Does that make it acceptable? If so, what's the upper limit on an acceptable number of citizens being disappeared? That's not a rhetorical question.
      - lurk2 1y ago
        > If so, what's the upper limit on an acceptable number of citizens being disappeared? I didn’t articulate that properly. There have probably been a non-zero number of illegal detentions, and a few instances (only about a dozen that I’m aware of, most of those preceding the present administration) where citizens have been deported. The ideal number of times either of these things would happen is 0, but there’s no evidence that it’s a systemic problem that would necessitate abolishing immigration enforcement entirely.
        ozozozd 1y ago
        Ok. Thanks for clarifying that in your view it’s worth deporting a few citizens to a prison in another country so that we can deport folks at Home Depot parking lots etc.

lurk2 1y ago

[flagged]

testing22321 1y ago
There are plenty of legal US citizens being abducted. From TFA: US citizens, including women and children, were grabbed from their beds, marched outside without even a chance to dress, zip-tied, and loaded into vans.
- lurk2 1y ago
  If we assume the reporting in the linked video was accurate, you’re at most talking about unlawful detention and 4th amendment violations. No one with legal status to reside in the country was reported to have disappeared in the way you are implying.
  - testing22321 1y ago
    You’re fine with this? Totally cool when this happens to you and your family?
    - lurk2 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - lurk2 1y ago
      I’m not at all worried about my family being deported for the simple reason that they have legal status to reside in the places where they reside. I wouldn’t have approached it the same way, but for the sole reason that you end up with citizens being inconvenienced. This post wasn’t about citizens having their rights infringed upon, though; it’s obvious from the editorializing that the author does not believe that America has any fundamental right to sovereignty. The author’s primary concern (and yours, I would venture) is ensuring that foreign nationals are not molested as they continue to reside and work within the United States illegally. -
      - testing22321 1y ago
        You couldn’t be more wrong. That is absolutely not my primary concern. It’s not a concern at all.
        lurk2 1y ago
        So you believe that America has a fundamental right to enforce its immigration laws, and that enforcement of those laws is permissible provided that such enforcement occurs within whatever bounds you deem to be humane, and your only objection to these activities is their real or potential impact on the civil rights of American citizens?
        ozozozd 1y ago
        Pretty obviously. In fact, you defined a pretty good standard with the exception of the snark about what the OP deems humane - not deporting to an overcrowded prison in a 3rd country can’t be that hard to agree on. All evidenced by the fact that higher deportation numbers during Obama created no uproar. You think it’s coz Obama was handsome or smtg?
        lurk2 1y ago
        > Pretty obviously. You're telling me it's obvious but I still don't think that you'd agree with the statement that: "your only objection to these activities is their real or potential impact on the civil rights of American citizens." If the infrastructure was in place to ensure each of these cases was thoroughly reviewed (for example, to address refugee claimant status), would you object to the deportation of absolutely all foreign nationals illegally residing in the United States? I have a hunch that the answer is no, and even if it were yes, I don't think it's obvious from the language used in this thread that attitudes towards this issue are stemming from a Ron Paul style concern over the fate of the American Republic and its civil liberties. From the language used, it seems far more likely that these people see immigration law as basically illegitimate, and that their policy position is whatever enables the largest number of illegal residents to remain in the country. > In fact, you defined a pretty good standard with the exception of the snark about what the OP deems humane You're reading into the comment. His own standard of what he deems humane would obviously be a prerequisite for him to deem the practices acceptable. Given the inane comment you made about another one of my comments being "plainly illogical" I would request that you keep to the issues and stop tone policing. > - not deporting to an overcrowded prison in a 3rd country can’t be that hard to agree on. Evidently not. It's not the most effective policy (which would be targeting employers), but if you don't imprison repeat offenders, the incentive will always be there to try again. For as many of the sob stories you're seeing about a father of six getting deported after working diligently for 30 years as an unlicensed carpenter, there are a dozen guys getting caught at the Home Deport parking lot who will be back in the country within the year. Deportation to these people is an inconvenience, not a Greek tragedy, and the only way you could really dissuade them from it would be incarcerating them so that the penalty is some period where they know they aren't going to have any earnings. > All evidenced by the fact that higher deportation numbers during Obama created no uproar. You think it’s coz Obama was handsome or smtg? Obama's higher deportation numbers were largely the result of changes to the definition of what constituted a deportation.

lurk2 1y ago

[flagged]

ozozozd 1y ago
OP mentions US citizens being detained. Commenter is wondering how other US citizens supporting such activities would feel if their family was detained similarly. Unless you’re talking about citizens of another country that are in favor of these deportations, your comment is plainly illogical.
- lurk2 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - nobody9999 1y ago
    >The number of times this has happened has not been 0, but in terms of documented instances, you're not talking about a very large group of people. "you're not talking about a very large group of people"? Does that make it acceptable? If so, what's the upper limit on an acceptable number of citizens being disappeared? That's not a rhetorical question.
    - lurk2 1y ago
      > If so, what's the upper limit on an acceptable number of citizens being disappeared? I didn’t articulate that properly. There have probably been a non-zero number of illegal detentions, and a few instances (only about a dozen that I’m aware of, most of those preceding the present administration) where citizens have been deported. The ideal number of times either of these things would happen is 0, but there’s no evidence that it’s a systemic problem that would necessitate abolishing immigration enforcement entirely.
      - ozozozd 1y ago
        Ok. Thanks for clarifying that in your view it’s worth deporting a few citizens to a prison in another country so that we can deport folks at Home Depot parking lots etc.