5 ms·

Mozilla sure is going out of their way to alienate their remaining users. This is going to be Pocket 2.0. Who asked for this? Who wants it? Certainly not the L

by nrclark 11mo ago

Mozilla sure is going out of their way to alienate their remaining users. This is going to be Pocket 2.0. Who asked for this? Who wants it? Certainly not the Linux / open-source crowd, and they're just about the only ones who are keeping Firefox alive. If there's anybody from Mozilla or the Firefox dev team in this thread, I'd be interested to hear the thinking behind this addition.

noir_lord 11mo ago
It annoys me that I have to disable this alongside the telemetry I already had to disable (and their Home page crap). Telemetry should always be opt in not opt out - I don't care how you justify it but especially I don't care when you've marketed yourself with "Firefox is built with privacy and protection as the default."[1] [1] https://www.firefox.com/en-US/user-privacy/ https://www.firefox.com/en-US/user-privacy/ When it comes to on by default - If what you are doing amounts to "I Am Altering the Deal, Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further." then you might have to ask yourself whether you should be doing it.
dzikimarian 11mo ago
I want this. I'm Firefox user for years btw. Most prominent thing is chat in sidebar. It's iframe + a few shortcuts. Optional, harmless, using zero resources. Actually quite convenient. Another is perplexity being one of the search providers. This is literally config not code. I wonder how many people actually removed or even looked at the list of the default search providers before that. I think only real one is ml naming for tabs. Just meh. Honestly people who deny any usefulness of AI are getting dangerously close to flat-earthers by now.
- nativeit 11mo ago
  Any reason why extensions couldn’t fill these niches?
  - dzikimarian 11mo ago
    Personally I don't care - it could be first-party extension. But you could bring up the same argument about vertical tabs, tab groups, Firefox Sync or many other things that interfere with the browser on much deeper level than shortcut to open page in the sidebar. Is there argument to single out this specific feature apart from "AI bad"?
- malnourish 11mo ago
  Agreed; I wish they would expose how to set your own chat provider more easily than about:config, but the sidebar chat is easily my most used unique "UX" Firefox feature. I'd like to see (opt-in) automatic grouping. The kinda-sorta grouping it does still requires you to manually engage with it.
- t_mann 11mo ago
  > Honestly people who deny any usefulness of AI are getting dangerously close to flat-earthers by now. What made you jump to that conclusion? My guess about someone who's using a non-mainstream browser and figuring out how to configure it to their liking is that they're likely also using AI in more ways than the standard Chat-Webinterface, eg Agents, CLI tools, MCP,... To give an analogy, rolling your eyes over brainrot memes isn't denying the usefulness of smartphones or messengers either. The underlying sentiment is being critical of things that get pushed down our throats through A/B-optimized patterns that ultimately serve other interests than your own, profits or darker.
  - dzikimarian 11mo ago
    Making a very simple feature and enabling it, with option to disable it is no pushing down the throat, nor dark pattern. Please don't compare it to Google or Microsoft products that give you "Enable now/Remind later" or just no option at all.
    - t_mann 11mo ago
      It's the beginning, A/B-testing takes time...
      - dzikimarian 11mo ago
        How much time do you expect? People complain at least since FF4 release, which was 14 years ago. Today this is still most customizable browser on the market.
        t_mann 11mo ago
        Much of this thread is people complaining about on-by-default features and hard-to-find configurations. We're really just talking about a continuation of a trend.
- tolciho 11mo ago
  > Honestly people who deny any usefulness of AI are getting dangerously close to flat-earthers by now. This is a remarkably useless argument; "any" could be anything whatsoever, for example that the fuzzy logic of some prior AI craze ended up in certain rice cookers, while ignoring that the remaining 99.8881118881118883479075520881451666355133056640625 (or so) percent of AI is some combination of grift, wishful thinking, or both.
- andrew_lettuce 11mo ago
  Way to move the goalposts. The argument is not about the usefulness, it's about baked-in on by default features for what are obvious extension workflows. About the only marketing advantage FF has at this point is customizable and lack of dirty tricks. Mozilla seems confusingly desperate to sell out here asap
  - dzikimarian 11mo ago
    Why this is obvious extension workflow and vertical tabs or FF Sync aren't? How do you propose they finance development if we consider simple integrations with zero privacy or customization impact "selling out"?
    - BrenBarn 11mo ago
      Those are also obvious extension workflow. They would need to finance a lot less development if they stopped changing things and just worked on maintaining a limited core functionality including a nice extension system. That's it. Most of their "development" over the last 10 years has been a total waste of time.
      - dzikimarian 11mo ago
        You really think these things are requiring significant development budget, compared to keeping up with things like wasm, webgpu, grid/flex layouts? Can you really say with a straight face, that not doing vertical tabs or chat shortcut would allow them to operate on much smaller budget?
        BrenBarn 11mo ago
        I don't know, do you have evidence to the contrary? Either way, all I'm saying is when I look at the UI changes that have been made to Firefox over a period of years, I believe their value to me is closer to zero than their development cost is.
        11mo ago
yreg 11mo ago
It should be opt-in to avoid alienating users. That being said, I'm a FF user interested in exploring what LLM features in webbrowsers could bring. I would hate it if lack of them would make me switch to chromium-based browsers. So I'm happy Mozilla is exploring these.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
Ukv 11mo ago
> Certainly not the Linux / open-source crowd At least the local AI features, being able to translate or summarize a page without sending it off to Google, seem like they'd appeal to this crowd the most. I don't really understand the article's complaints (like "high cpu & ram usage with firefox local ai features" and "forcing [...] without asking the user") when to my understanding they're something you have to intentionally decide to use and are not using any resources otherwise - unless there's some feature I've missed.
- HappyPanacea 11mo ago
  > At least the local AI features, being able to translate or summarize a page without sending it off to Google, seem like they'd appeal to this crowd the most. Yes I would like more local translation support! (Faster, better, more languages, sometimes it fails on mobile for unknown reasons). Also Firefox history could use refresh (like suggested here https://community.brave.app/t/improvements-for-browser-history-search-filtering-and-or-contextual-results-for-specific-dates/461219 https://community.brave.app/t/improvements-for-browser-histo... and 5 can be AI enhanced)
- jchw 11mo ago
  Local translation, sure. Summarization? No... For one thing, I don't use anything for that (does Google have a "Summarize This" feature now?) But unless I missed it, I don't even think this article disables the local translation feature. I'm pretty sure that is controlled by `browser.translations.enable`.
- 0manrho 11mo ago
  Any AI features, helpful or no, seems to me like something that should exist in the form of an extension, not baked into the browser. Or, if baked in, should be opt in, not opt out by default, as regardless of where you fall on it, AI is a divisive topic and people have strong opinions on it. Especially the people in Firefoxes remaining small audience that tend to be more technically literate and privacy/security conscious. I have no problem with it announcing new features and asking if I wish to enable them after an update, but I'd really rather prefer it not to force enable new features (regardless of proximity/relevance to AI) whether it tells me about them up front - and especially don't want it to if they aren't even notifying me of it.
rc_kas 11mo ago
Yeah. As a Mozilla/FF user for as long as I have memory ... unwanted "features" are about the only way to get me stop using this browser.
charcircuit 11mo ago
>Certainly not the Linux / open-source crowd Appealing to that crowd is not big enough to grow it's market share from 2%.
- do_not_redeem 11mo ago
  Appealing to that crowd is how they grew their market share the first time around. The techies came first, trust was established, and then they recommended it to everyone else. Do you really think AI features are going to move the needle here? Is your grandma going to think "Wow, Firefox can summarize my emails!" and switch web browsers?
  - fabrice_d 11mo ago
    Most of Firefox user base has always been on Windows, not Linux. What OS do you think the "techies" that promoted Firefox to replace IE in the first place were running?
    - do_not_redeem 11mo ago
      Sure maybe 20 years ago. But back then Linux's userbase was also on Windows, because desktop Linux hadn't really become usable yet. I think nowadays Firefox's marketshare is a lot higher on e.g. Ubuntu (where it's the default) than it is on Windows (where Edge is the default).
      - fabrice_d 11mo ago
        According to Mozilla's own data at https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware Windows (7, 10 & 11) make up 84% of their user base.
        3836293648 11mo ago
        That's not the claim being made and you know it
scuff3d 11mo ago
I switched to Vivaldi because I was fed up with Firefox. I'm not thrilled it isn't open source. But it works, it has the best out of the box experience I've seen in any browser, and they don't shove AI features in my face.
AuthAuth 11mo ago
Actually there was a lot of people a few hears ago begging mozilla for local AI features. I think that whats been added so far is useful. Translation, Text to speech and tab group naming are solid features.
burnte 11mo ago
> Mozilla sure is going out of their way to alienate their remaining users They've ALWAYS had the most terrible public-facing messaging. They're diodes, they know what the market wants, and never take feedback. It's why I quit volunteering ages ago.

by nrclark 11mo ago

noir_lord 11mo ago

It annoys me that I have to disable this alongside the telemetry I already had to disable (and their Home page crap). Telemetry should always be opt in not opt out - I don't care how you justify it but especially I don't care when you've marketed yourself with "Firefox is built with privacy and protection as the default."[1] [1] https://www.firefox.com/en-US/user-privacy/ https://www.firefox.com/en-US/user-privacy/ When it comes to on by default - If what you are doing amounts to "I Am Altering the Deal, Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further." then you might have to ask yourself whether you should be doing it.

dzikimarian 11mo ago

I want this. I'm Firefox user for years btw. Most prominent thing is chat in sidebar. It's iframe + a few shortcuts. Optional, harmless, using zero resources. Actually quite convenient. Another is perplexity being one of the search providers. This is literally config not code. I wonder how many people actually removed or even looked at the list of the default search providers before that. I think only real one is ml naming for tabs. Just meh. Honestly people who deny any usefulness of AI are getting dangerously close to flat-earthers by now.

nativeit 11mo ago
Any reason why extensions couldn’t fill these niches?
- dzikimarian 11mo ago
  Personally I don't care - it could be first-party extension. But you could bring up the same argument about vertical tabs, tab groups, Firefox Sync or many other things that interfere with the browser on much deeper level than shortcut to open page in the sidebar. Is there argument to single out this specific feature apart from "AI bad"?
malnourish 11mo ago
Agreed; I wish they would expose how to set your own chat provider more easily than about:config, but the sidebar chat is easily my most used unique "UX" Firefox feature. I'd like to see (opt-in) automatic grouping. The kinda-sorta grouping it does still requires you to manually engage with it.
t_mann 11mo ago
> Honestly people who deny any usefulness of AI are getting dangerously close to flat-earthers by now. What made you jump to that conclusion? My guess about someone who's using a non-mainstream browser and figuring out how to configure it to their liking is that they're likely also using AI in more ways than the standard Chat-Webinterface, eg Agents, CLI tools, MCP,... To give an analogy, rolling your eyes over brainrot memes isn't denying the usefulness of smartphones or messengers either. The underlying sentiment is being critical of things that get pushed down our throats through A/B-optimized patterns that ultimately serve other interests than your own, profits or darker.
- dzikimarian 11mo ago
  Making a very simple feature and enabling it, with option to disable it is no pushing down the throat, nor dark pattern. Please don't compare it to Google or Microsoft products that give you "Enable now/Remind later" or just no option at all.
  - t_mann 11mo ago
    It's the beginning, A/B-testing takes time...
    - dzikimarian 11mo ago
      How much time do you expect? People complain at least since FF4 release, which was 14 years ago. Today this is still most customizable browser on the market.
      - t_mann 11mo ago
        Much of this thread is people complaining about on-by-default features and hard-to-find configurations. We're really just talking about a continuation of a trend.
tolciho 11mo ago
> Honestly people who deny any usefulness of AI are getting dangerously close to flat-earthers by now. This is a remarkably useless argument; "any" could be anything whatsoever, for example that the fuzzy logic of some prior AI craze ended up in certain rice cookers, while ignoring that the remaining 99.8881118881118883479075520881451666355133056640625 (or so) percent of AI is some combination of grift, wishful thinking, or both.
andrew_lettuce 11mo ago
Way to move the goalposts. The argument is not about the usefulness, it's about baked-in on by default features for what are obvious extension workflows. About the only marketing advantage FF has at this point is customizable and lack of dirty tricks. Mozilla seems confusingly desperate to sell out here asap
- dzikimarian 11mo ago
  Why this is obvious extension workflow and vertical tabs or FF Sync aren't? How do you propose they finance development if we consider simple integrations with zero privacy or customization impact "selling out"?
  - BrenBarn 11mo ago
    Those are also obvious extension workflow. They would need to finance a lot less development if they stopped changing things and just worked on maintaining a limited core functionality including a nice extension system. That's it. Most of their "development" over the last 10 years has been a total waste of time.
    - dzikimarian 11mo ago
      You really think these things are requiring significant development budget, compared to keeping up with things like wasm, webgpu, grid/flex layouts? Can you really say with a straight face, that not doing vertical tabs or chat shortcut would allow them to operate on much smaller budget?
      - BrenBarn 11mo ago
        I don't know, do you have evidence to the contrary? Either way, all I'm saying is when I look at the UI changes that have been made to Firefox over a period of years, I believe their value to me is closer to zero than their development cost is.
        11mo ago

yreg 11mo ago

It should be opt-in to avoid alienating users. That being said, I'm a FF user interested in exploring what LLM features in webbrowsers could bring. I would hate it if lack of them would make me switch to chromium-based browsers. So I'm happy Mozilla is exploring these.

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]

Ukv 11mo ago

> Certainly not the Linux / open-source crowd At least the local AI features, being able to translate or summarize a page without sending it off to Google, seem like they'd appeal to this crowd the most. I don't really understand the article's complaints (like "high cpu & ram usage with firefox local ai features" and "forcing [...] without asking the user") when to my understanding they're something you have to intentionally decide to use and are not using any resources otherwise - unless there's some feature I've missed.

HappyPanacea 11mo ago
> At least the local AI features, being able to translate or summarize a page without sending it off to Google, seem like they'd appeal to this crowd the most. Yes I would like more local translation support! (Faster, better, more languages, sometimes it fails on mobile for unknown reasons). Also Firefox history could use refresh (like suggested here https://community.brave.app/t/improvements-for-browser-history-search-filtering-and-or-contextual-results-for-specific-dates/461219 https://community.brave.app/t/improvements-for-browser-histo... and 5 can be AI enhanced)
jchw 11mo ago
Local translation, sure. Summarization? No... For one thing, I don't use anything for that (does Google have a "Summarize This" feature now?) But unless I missed it, I don't even think this article disables the local translation feature. I'm pretty sure that is controlled by `browser.translations.enable`.
0manrho 11mo ago
Any AI features, helpful or no, seems to me like something that should exist in the form of an extension, not baked into the browser. Or, if baked in, should be opt in, not opt out by default, as regardless of where you fall on it, AI is a divisive topic and people have strong opinions on it. Especially the people in Firefoxes remaining small audience that tend to be more technically literate and privacy/security conscious. I have no problem with it announcing new features and asking if I wish to enable them after an update, but I'd really rather prefer it not to force enable new features (regardless of proximity/relevance to AI) whether it tells me about them up front - and especially don't want it to if they aren't even notifying me of it.

rc_kas 11mo ago

Yeah. As a Mozilla/FF user for as long as I have memory ... unwanted "features" are about the only way to get me stop using this browser.

charcircuit 11mo ago

>Certainly not the Linux / open-source crowd Appealing to that crowd is not big enough to grow it's market share from 2%.

do_not_redeem 11mo ago
Appealing to that crowd is how they grew their market share the first time around. The techies came first, trust was established, and then they recommended it to everyone else. Do you really think AI features are going to move the needle here? Is your grandma going to think "Wow, Firefox can summarize my emails!" and switch web browsers?
- fabrice_d 11mo ago
  Most of Firefox user base has always been on Windows, not Linux. What OS do you think the "techies" that promoted Firefox to replace IE in the first place were running?
  - do_not_redeem 11mo ago
    Sure maybe 20 years ago. But back then Linux's userbase was also on Windows, because desktop Linux hadn't really become usable yet. I think nowadays Firefox's marketshare is a lot higher on e.g. Ubuntu (where it's the default) than it is on Windows (where Edge is the default).
    - fabrice_d 11mo ago
      According to Mozilla's own data at https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware Windows (7, 10 & 11) make up 84% of their user base.
      - 3836293648 11mo ago
        That's not the claim being made and you know it

scuff3d 11mo ago

I switched to Vivaldi because I was fed up with Firefox. I'm not thrilled it isn't open source. But it works, it has the best out of the box experience I've seen in any browser, and they don't shove AI features in my face.

AuthAuth 11mo ago

Actually there was a lot of people a few hears ago begging mozilla for local AI features. I think that whats been added so far is useful. Translation, Text to speech and tab group naming are solid features.

burnte 11mo ago

> Mozilla sure is going out of their way to alienate their remaining users They've ALWAYS had the most terrible public-facing messaging. They're diodes, they know what the market wants, and never take feedback. It's why I quit volunteering ages ago.