6 ms·

What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft? Let's assume that Apple's contrac

What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft? Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction. Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps? Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service. But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?

Cadsby 14y ago
Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.
kmfrk 14y ago
It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.
TetOn 14y ago
They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have. Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App. Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
- notimetorelax 14y ago
  > Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem. Not if you live in the area that has very low resolution maps. IMHO "finite problem" is an antithesis to accurate maps. Mapping requires constant improvement. For example roads in the area where I live have been modified 3 times in last 5 years.
  - bluthru 14y ago
    The rate of map refining will always be quicker than the rate of building roads.
    - tomrod 14y ago
      On average. Not in the tails.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Always? No. That does not happen by itself, that only happens if you are willing to invest vast resources to see it through.
- krenoten 14y ago
  >>They don't want to partner with anybody They run iCloud on Windows Azure, why not run their map service using Bing Maps data?
  - weiran 14y ago
    Azure is a redundancy service. They have their own data centre that hosts iCloud.
    - glhaynes 14y ago
      Just curious: is that "known as a fact" now? I'd imagine that means that their own data center for iCloud is running Windows Server, too. Which doesn't really seem any less likely in today's world than Linux servers but it would be interesting just in terms of how much you could blow Apple fans' minds if you could travel back 15 years and tell them that. EDIT: I'm wrong, as pointed out below; Azure isn't just for Windows Server.
nicholassmith 14y ago
Well, they had two choices in front of them. Suck it up and partner, or suck it up and risk this situation. Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.
- camiller 14y ago
  FWIW, I've read elsewhere that Google has had 1000 contractors in India cleaning up map data for 5 years. People using it isn't going to clean it up with "moaning". Apple is going to have to throw a LOT of resources at fixing this.
  - nicholassmith 14y ago
    More people moan the more likely it is Apple will throw resources at it. It needs people using it and complaining to show where the data isn't working.
    - camiller 14y ago
      Do they actually have a system in place the allows users to report enough detail to fix something? Personally I don't consider bug reports moaning.
      - nicholassmith 14y ago
        From trying it there does seem to be a reasonable level of detail. I don't of course just mean the bug reports, I mean every email going into customer support, every snarky comment directed at Apple and so on. It'll encourage them to dig deep, hopefully.
      - mvelie 14y ago
        There's a "report issue" button if you hit the bottom right corner of the map. It allows you to drop pins where issues are and gives free text fields to enter information.
duxup 14y ago
I suspect that cutting the google deal short was intentionally done leave Google flat footed with no map app on iOS. Simply put it cuts google out of that market for a while leaving Apple the only major player on their device. While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience. Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product. As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.
- freyr 14y ago
  > leaving Apple the only major player on their device. > over time customers will just accept that is their only option As Tim Cook mentioned, there are already map apps available for Bing, MapQuest and Waze, and turn-by-turn navigation apps from all the major players. Google announced that they have not submitted their own maps app for iOS. Unless, perhaps rightly, you're considering Google the only major player. More reason for Apple to switch now.
- betterth 14y ago
  I disagree with the cutting the deal short. The Maps app was in beta for months, was announced in April and I bet that Google knew it was coming even before the official announcement. Quite frankly, Google has had plenty of time to be working on a Maps application for iOS. It's not like they have to reinvent the wheel with this, they have iOS development teams and experience with mobile mapping applications. I think that Google willfully chose not to have a product ready. It's a good explanation when you realize they had months of lead time, and when you factor in all of the CEO "I don't know nothing' about no app" comments.
  - tlrobinson 14y ago
    Wasn't there a rumor Google has a maps app waiting for approval by Apple?
freyr 14y ago
1/3 the quality? Have you used the maps? I agree that they're not amazing, but in my experience the complaints about low quality seem overblown. It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual user feedback, this should accelerate the development.
- eggbrain 14y ago
  Maps become exponentially better the closer they get to accurate. Even if Apple has, let's say, 90% of the map data/information that Google does, the minute you are sent to the wrong location, or to a store that doesn't exist, or try to get transit directions and can't, or get routed via the most convoluted route possible to your destination, the Maps app has failed.
  - wilfra 14y ago
    I've experienced every one of those scenarios in the last week. And I live a few miles from Apple headquarters! Turn by turn navigation is awesome though. Once they've worked out the kinks I'm sure this experience will be better overall.
    - guyzero 14y ago
      I keep hearing from iphone users that phrase almost verbatim: "Turn by turn navigation is awesome though". If it's so awesome, why didn't you buy a standalone GPS or an Android phone over the last few years? Because it's nifty but for most iPhone users this is not a must-have feature. Which is why Apple can get away with shipping a crap maps app.
      - fpgeek 14y ago
        Or, even easier, a navigation app from Apple's app store...
      - wilfra 14y ago
        Do any of those work with Siri? That's the big value for me. When the new Maps work it is pure magic (sorry for the iMeme but it really is). -Looking straight ahead, grab phone and hold down Home button. -Siri chirps -"I need directions to foo" -"Here are directions to foo" -"In X miles turn Y on N" The only time I touched the phone was to hold down the Home button. Never once looked away from the road. It's amazing.
betterth 14y ago
Yes, they should have teamed up with another direct competitor, because that's worked so well for them in the past. Why go through Microsoft when their data is Nokia based anyway?
sethg 14y ago
There are two companies that have done the legwork to acquire a really really good database of mapping information: * TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google * Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?
- gman99 14y ago
  Err... What? Teleatlas is owned by TomTom who is currently in bed with ...Apple! What Google does have is that they partner with whomever has the best available information in the area of interest (check out the copyright info when you scroll around the world on google maps on the web) and augment that with streetview, Yellow Pages, crowdsourced info from Android, etc (and vetted by hand)
  - joelhaus 14y ago
    Thank you for this input that seems obvious, but appears to be overlooked by most in this thread. It also strikes me that Apple Maps do not have a web interface (unless I'm wrong). In my experience, anytime something I care about in my neighborhood is misplaced on Google Maps, I use the web interface to correct the location. Without this ability, I imagine that it could take Apple a long time to reach parity with Google Maps.
- eggbrain 14y ago
  Microsoft's #1 enemy right now would most likely be Google -- Balmer has been waging a war on the online front with Bing, and so far, has been losing pretty badly. As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend -- partnering with Apple would boost their Bing Maps market share into double digit percentage growth, all the while taking Google's map market share down. Even if you know the relationship won't last long and that in the end you'll have another competitor in the space, the rewards far outweigh the risks. It's far better to take down the king and fight for the throne than to always be a peasant.
  - 14y ago
jsz0 14y ago
Apple would be in exactly the same problematic position with Microsoft as they were with Google. Not worth the pain for no gain.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Now that they've already queered the deal with Google it's too late, but playing Google and Microsoft against each other they could have gotten sufficient leverage from at least one of them.
benihana 14y ago
Jon Gruber had a pretty good write up on this: "But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle." http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switch http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switc...
- jlgreco 14y ago
  How does that have anything to do with map providers other than google?
- cma 14y ago
  That reads like an autistic kid or maybe OCD adult with a 'special interest' in trains explaining why a train crashed: "Company A always bumped the letter of the model number when releasing a new engine. Company B designated upgrades to their brakes by doubling the current model number. You can hardly blame Company C for upgrading the engine without upgrading the brakes when in the past Company C has always kept the numeric form of the engine model number + brake model number mutually co-prime."
  - josteink 14y ago
    It reads like an apologist apologising. Gruber is a known shill who writes 50 shades of gray for Apple-fans.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      I just want to know where "just works" went. Why should a consumer have to worry about contracts between corporations when all they want to do is use their phone to catch a bus, just like they have been doing for years?
dr_ 14y ago
It is really not 1/3 the quality. It has errors, without question, but so did Google Maps when it first launched. To partner with another company and then, in a few years again switch to their own maps and start over or partner again with yet another company doesn't make sense. It's an unfortunate situation, but not something that can't be gradually fixed. There are several features I prefer actually. The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of. It looks nicer. And the yelp reviews are useful, perhaps even a good way for businesses to quickly become featured on maps. I have to be honest, none of the people I know who have purchased the 5 have complained much about maps, they realize its not as good as google but they feel the other features more than make up for it.
- gkanai 14y ago
  You haven't used iOS 6 Maps in non US/EU countries. The OSM map data in Asia is much less accurate. There is no Yelp outside of the US. Think global. iOS 6 Maps is worthless in Asia.
  - reidmain 14y ago
    Do you have a source for that? All the chatter I've heard is that Apple Maps is actually really useful in China. EDIT: Blog post from someone living in China extolling the virtues of iOS 6 maps http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china.html http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....
    - smackfu 14y ago
      Isn't that because they have China using a local dataset, that doesn't even have the rest of the world on the map?
      - reidmain 14y ago
        Apple is using AutoNavi (not TomTom) for its map data in China (which Google is using as well). Here's a blog post from someone who lives in China describing why he likes iOS 6 maps more than Google Maps. http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china.html http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....

Cadsby 14y ago

Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.

kmfrk 14y ago

It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.

TetOn 14y ago

They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have. Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App. Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.

notimetorelax 14y ago
> Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem. Not if you live in the area that has very low resolution maps. IMHO "finite problem" is an antithesis to accurate maps. Mapping requires constant improvement. For example roads in the area where I live have been modified 3 times in last 5 years.
- bluthru 14y ago
  The rate of map refining will always be quicker than the rate of building roads.
  - tomrod 14y ago
    On average. Not in the tails.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Always? No. That does not happen by itself, that only happens if you are willing to invest vast resources to see it through.
krenoten 14y ago
>>They don't want to partner with anybody They run iCloud on Windows Azure, why not run their map service using Bing Maps data?
- weiran 14y ago
  Azure is a redundancy service. They have their own data centre that hosts iCloud.
  - glhaynes 14y ago
    Just curious: is that "known as a fact" now? I'd imagine that means that their own data center for iCloud is running Windows Server, too. Which doesn't really seem any less likely in today's world than Linux servers but it would be interesting just in terms of how much you could blow Apple fans' minds if you could travel back 15 years and tell them that. EDIT: I'm wrong, as pointed out below; Azure isn't just for Windows Server.

nicholassmith 14y ago

Well, they had two choices in front of them. Suck it up and partner, or suck it up and risk this situation. Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.

camiller 14y ago
FWIW, I've read elsewhere that Google has had 1000 contractors in India cleaning up map data for 5 years. People using it isn't going to clean it up with "moaning". Apple is going to have to throw a LOT of resources at fixing this.
- nicholassmith 14y ago
  More people moan the more likely it is Apple will throw resources at it. It needs people using it and complaining to show where the data isn't working.
  - camiller 14y ago
    Do they actually have a system in place the allows users to report enough detail to fix something? Personally I don't consider bug reports moaning.
    - nicholassmith 14y ago
      From trying it there does seem to be a reasonable level of detail. I don't of course just mean the bug reports, I mean every email going into customer support, every snarky comment directed at Apple and so on. It'll encourage them to dig deep, hopefully.
    - mvelie 14y ago
      There's a "report issue" button if you hit the bottom right corner of the map. It allows you to drop pins where issues are and gives free text fields to enter information.

duxup 14y ago

I suspect that cutting the google deal short was intentionally done leave Google flat footed with no map app on iOS. Simply put it cuts google out of that market for a while leaving Apple the only major player on their device. While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience. Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product. As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.

freyr 14y ago
> leaving Apple the only major player on their device. > over time customers will just accept that is their only option As Tim Cook mentioned, there are already map apps available for Bing, MapQuest and Waze, and turn-by-turn navigation apps from all the major players. Google announced that they have not submitted their own maps app for iOS. Unless, perhaps rightly, you're considering Google the only major player. More reason for Apple to switch now.
betterth 14y ago
I disagree with the cutting the deal short. The Maps app was in beta for months, was announced in April and I bet that Google knew it was coming even before the official announcement. Quite frankly, Google has had plenty of time to be working on a Maps application for iOS. It's not like they have to reinvent the wheel with this, they have iOS development teams and experience with mobile mapping applications. I think that Google willfully chose not to have a product ready. It's a good explanation when you realize they had months of lead time, and when you factor in all of the CEO "I don't know nothing' about no app" comments.
- tlrobinson 14y ago
  Wasn't there a rumor Google has a maps app waiting for approval by Apple?

freyr 14y ago

1/3 the quality? Have you used the maps? I agree that they're not amazing, but in my experience the complaints about low quality seem overblown. It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual user feedback, this should accelerate the development.

eggbrain 14y ago
Maps become exponentially better the closer they get to accurate. Even if Apple has, let's say, 90% of the map data/information that Google does, the minute you are sent to the wrong location, or to a store that doesn't exist, or try to get transit directions and can't, or get routed via the most convoluted route possible to your destination, the Maps app has failed.
- wilfra 14y ago
  I've experienced every one of those scenarios in the last week. And I live a few miles from Apple headquarters! Turn by turn navigation is awesome though. Once they've worked out the kinks I'm sure this experience will be better overall.
  - guyzero 14y ago
    I keep hearing from iphone users that phrase almost verbatim: "Turn by turn navigation is awesome though". If it's so awesome, why didn't you buy a standalone GPS or an Android phone over the last few years? Because it's nifty but for most iPhone users this is not a must-have feature. Which is why Apple can get away with shipping a crap maps app.
    - fpgeek 14y ago
      Or, even easier, a navigation app from Apple's app store...
    - wilfra 14y ago
      Do any of those work with Siri? That's the big value for me. When the new Maps work it is pure magic (sorry for the iMeme but it really is). -Looking straight ahead, grab phone and hold down Home button. -Siri chirps -"I need directions to foo" -"Here are directions to foo" -"In X miles turn Y on N" The only time I touched the phone was to hold down the Home button. Never once looked away from the road. It's amazing.

betterth 14y ago

Yes, they should have teamed up with another direct competitor, because that's worked so well for them in the past. Why go through Microsoft when their data is Nokia based anyway?

sethg 14y ago

There are two companies that have done the legwork to acquire a really really good database of mapping information: * TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google * Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?

gman99 14y ago
Err... What? Teleatlas is owned by TomTom who is currently in bed with ...Apple! What Google does have is that they partner with whomever has the best available information in the area of interest (check out the copyright info when you scroll around the world on google maps on the web) and augment that with streetview, Yellow Pages, crowdsourced info from Android, etc (and vetted by hand)
- joelhaus 14y ago
  Thank you for this input that seems obvious, but appears to be overlooked by most in this thread. It also strikes me that Apple Maps do not have a web interface (unless I'm wrong). In my experience, anytime something I care about in my neighborhood is misplaced on Google Maps, I use the web interface to correct the location. Without this ability, I imagine that it could take Apple a long time to reach parity with Google Maps.
eggbrain 14y ago
Microsoft's #1 enemy right now would most likely be Google -- Balmer has been waging a war on the online front with Bing, and so far, has been losing pretty badly. As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend -- partnering with Apple would boost their Bing Maps market share into double digit percentage growth, all the while taking Google's map market share down. Even if you know the relationship won't last long and that in the end you'll have another competitor in the space, the rewards far outweigh the risks. It's far better to take down the king and fight for the throne than to always be a peasant.
- 14y ago

jsz0 14y ago

Apple would be in exactly the same problematic position with Microsoft as they were with Google. Not worth the pain for no gain.

philwelch 14y ago
Now that they've already queered the deal with Google it's too late, but playing Google and Microsoft against each other they could have gotten sufficient leverage from at least one of them.

benihana 14y ago

Jon Gruber had a pretty good write up on this: "But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle." http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switch http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switc...

jlgreco 14y ago
How does that have anything to do with map providers other than google?
cma 14y ago
That reads like an autistic kid or maybe OCD adult with a 'special interest' in trains explaining why a train crashed: "Company A always bumped the letter of the model number when releasing a new engine. Company B designated upgrades to their brakes by doubling the current model number. You can hardly blame Company C for upgrading the engine without upgrading the brakes when in the past Company C has always kept the numeric form of the engine model number + brake model number mutually co-prime."
- josteink 14y ago
  It reads like an apologist apologising. Gruber is a known shill who writes 50 shades of gray for Apple-fans.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I just want to know where "just works" went. Why should a consumer have to worry about contracts between corporations when all they want to do is use their phone to catch a bus, just like they have been doing for years?

dr_ 14y ago

It is really not 1/3 the quality. It has errors, without question, but so did Google Maps when it first launched. To partner with another company and then, in a few years again switch to their own maps and start over or partner again with yet another company doesn't make sense. It's an unfortunate situation, but not something that can't be gradually fixed. There are several features I prefer actually. The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of. It looks nicer. And the yelp reviews are useful, perhaps even a good way for businesses to quickly become featured on maps. I have to be honest, none of the people I know who have purchased the 5 have complained much about maps, they realize its not as good as google but they feel the other features more than make up for it.

gkanai 14y ago
You haven't used iOS 6 Maps in non US/EU countries. The OSM map data in Asia is much less accurate. There is no Yelp outside of the US. Think global. iOS 6 Maps is worthless in Asia.
- reidmain 14y ago
  Do you have a source for that? All the chatter I've heard is that Apple Maps is actually really useful in China. EDIT: Blog post from someone living in China extolling the virtues of iOS 6 maps http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china.html http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....
  - smackfu 14y ago
    Isn't that because they have China using a local dataset, that doesn't even have the rest of the world on the map?
    - reidmain 14y ago
      Apple is using AutoNavi (not TomTom) for its map data in China (which Google is using as well). Here's a blog post from someone who lives in China describing why he likes iOS 6 maps more than Google Maps. http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china.html http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....