8 ms·

Mullvad: Shutting down our search proxy Leta

218 points by holysoles 11mo ago

holysoles 11mo ago
For anyone looking at alternatives, I've been a user of searxng for awhile and have found it to be pretty solid.
- backscratches 11mo ago
  Submit a query to a random instance via https://searx.neocities.org https://searx.neocities.org (which is set as my homepage).
  - BrenBarn 11mo ago
    This has the same problem that most public searxng instances seem to have nowadays, which is that they don't work. Either you just get an error about rate limiting or you get results totally unrelated to your search. I just tried a couple random searches about geographical locations (in English) and got back a bunch of results in Chinese.
- mac-attack 11mo ago
  Mullvad Leta was an engine of choice within SearXNG for my self-hosted instance. Disappointed to see it go.
- OhioMan2943 11mo ago
  i love searx but i wish it could include yandex as well- then it would be perfect- dumb wars
- BrenBarn 11mo ago
  I had been using baresearch.org (a searxng instance) but it's recently become unusable, apparently due to the engines it aggregates cracking down on such things. I tried some other instances but they also don't work. It's a bummer because I thought searxng was pretty great for the last year or two.
  - holysoles 11mo ago
    I've been selfhosting my own to avoid this issue. Once in awhile a search provider will be unavailable but its pretty consistent in pulling in the major ones. It doesnt require many resource and would be easy enough to run it on docker compose alongside a valkey/redis instance. I have mine on k8s but i dont think there is a helm chart easily found.
stevage 11mo ago
What exactly did it do? And why can't it do that anymore?
- supriyo-biswas 11mo ago
  Most likely that people are switching to LLM based search products in droves and the real demand is there.
  - therein 11mo ago
    Maybe you are but people are certainly not switching to LLM based search products in droves. It is the exact opposite for me. Everyone hates the LLM based search products in my circles. Just look at this shitshow. https://imgur.com/a/lAd3UHn https://imgur.com/a/lAd3UHn
    - jdiff 11mo ago
      Your circles might have a little more technical literacy than most. I'm working part time in retail at a hardware store currently and the amount of people who come in looking for parts specified exclusively by a single AI overview is mindboggling. People repairing car engines come in looking for bolts with specific lengths, materials, and thread pitches that AI told them they needed. I haven't had anyone come back and explicitly tell me that AI led them wrong, but I'm sure they've had to make multiple trips back out here.
      - zx8080 11mo ago
        Hardware repairs done by AI recommendations sounds really scary and dangerous.
      - DrewADesign 11mo ago
        TBF: people overconfident in their DIY fixing skills are precisely the sort replacing searches with an LLM query.
    - tharkun__ 11mo ago
Taek 11mo ago
Sad to see it go, at the same time I never used it and it seems that the rationale is highly pragmatic, so you certainly won't find me protesting the decision. Privacy is an uphill battle, we should use our efforts where they make the most impact.
mkatx 11mo ago
Damn.. I just learned about this.
charcircuit 11mo ago
>Similar privacy can be achieved through the combination of a VPN and a privacy-focused browser. Mullvad sell a VPN and privacy-focused browser so how are they unable to proxy the searches themselves? They already have the needed tools developed.
- jdiff 11mo ago
  A VPN and a privacy-focused browser have similar practical usefulness to a private search engine. They cannot be used to create a private search engine.
  - charcircuit 11mo ago
    Yes, they can. You use the browser with the VPN to search sites like Bing and then scrape the search results.
    - jdiff 11mo ago
      You don't need a whole browser for that, just a VPN. And that'd likely get their servers blocked for their users if Google's cracking down on them already.
      - charcircuit 11mo ago
        >cracking down on them already. If they crack down on it then the suggestion to use a VPN and privacy browser won't work either.
- culi 11mo ago
  The browser is free btw and a great browser. Basically Tor without all the Tor protocol parts
jsheard 11mo ago
It always seemed like Leta was on thin ice since it queried Googles Search API and then cached the results for 30 days, which I believe is against Googles TOS. I wonder if they finally noticed and got mad. https://developers.google.com/terms https://developers.google.com/terms > you will not [...] keep cached copies longer than permitted by the cache header
- userbinator 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - HotGarbage 11mo ago
    This is why we have https://4get.ca/ https://4get.ca/
    - userbinator 11mo ago
      Your browser, IP or IP range has been blocked from this 4get instance Yeah, no.
    - ericpruitt 11mo ago
      Just a warning that some of the search header images are NSFW. After seeing that they were randomized, I starting going through them and got a dildo for one. EDIT: They've got them listed under an open index on https://4get.ca/banner/ https://4get.ca/banner/ if you want to see them all.
    - GaryBluto 11mo ago
      > 4chan-inspired search engine Why would anybody ever use anything vaguely adjacent to 4chan for anything?
      - ffsm8 11mo ago
        4 Chan continues to be the best actually "free"/borderline unmoderated forum to this date. It just comes with the problems that come from allowing it's users to speak whatever they want - anonymously... Hence you usually get everything there, from the most insightful to the most offensive. You might prefer a highly moderated platform such as HN, but 4Chan has it's own strengths if looked at from a natural position
geokon 11mo ago
a bit tangential but has anyone noticed a serious degredation in quality with duckduckgo? its become completely unusable and ive had to switch to Bing :( My guess is search's days are numbered and companies are "pivoting" away to other projects a shutdown is preferable to silent bitrot
- eviks 11mo ago
  But ddg is just Bing? How is it worse?
  - geokon 11mo ago
    i dont know their internals but its very clearly not. You can try side by side. Extremely basic searches fail. It seems intermittent and inconsisent. Maybe their backend to Bing fails and the fallback is terrible. Just guessing Right this moment it seems to work. 2 Days ago Id search for something basic like "CSS colors" and not get back a single usable result
    - lossyalgo 11mo ago
      Are you perhaps getting AI-generated trash that is just SEO optimized? I've noticed a TON more of these results in DDG and Google lately. You can now block those websites completely from DDG as of very recently (or at least I only noticed it very recently, and it's a true godsend to filter out all this AI-generated trash).
      - geokon 11mo ago
        how do you block them? but yeah its a combination of SEO trash but it also seemingly not having stuff indexed I'd search "Ask Clojure" or "Clojure Agents" and nothing from Clojure.org would show up or like "MDN SVG circle" and the MDN would just not show up. of course today im trying it and its all working haha
        lossyalgo 11mo ago
OhioMan2943 11mo ago
fair enough- i used it a few times but brave was just more convenient- also for everyone here brave does its' own indexing and you can downrank and uprank sites and it will remember it without an accout
- mouse-5346 11mo ago
  How has your experience with brave been privacy wise? Do they have an advertising network? Do they have sponsored search results or data harvesting?
IlikeKitties 11mo ago
If you want good search results, open up a tor browser and use yandex.ru. The difference in search result quality is eye-opening. Still hope Russia looks like Berlin in '45 soon but until then, you can't deny they got the better search engine.
donohoe 11mo ago
I use Mullvad for VPN and how no idea they had this! Are there other services should I be aware of?
- Ylpertnodi 11mo ago
  Mullvad browser.
wafriedemann 11mo ago
more important than a proxy is having an alternative to google because it is crazy how much they censor search results. just add brave search as a secondary.
dvntsemicolon 11mo ago
Yeah I expected that to happen eventually. It's a shame.
jeanlucas 11mo ago
Well, I called it out 5 months ago. It wasn't viable. :( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44117601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44117601

218 points by holysoles 11mo ago

holysoles 11mo ago

For anyone looking at alternatives, I've been a user of searxng for awhile and have found it to be pretty solid.

backscratches 11mo ago
Submit a query to a random instance via https://searx.neocities.org https://searx.neocities.org (which is set as my homepage).
- BrenBarn 11mo ago
  This has the same problem that most public searxng instances seem to have nowadays, which is that they don't work. Either you just get an error about rate limiting or you get results totally unrelated to your search. I just tried a couple random searches about geographical locations (in English) and got back a bunch of results in Chinese.
mac-attack 11mo ago
Mullvad Leta was an engine of choice within SearXNG for my self-hosted instance. Disappointed to see it go.
OhioMan2943 11mo ago
i love searx but i wish it could include yandex as well- then it would be perfect- dumb wars
BrenBarn 11mo ago
I had been using baresearch.org (a searxng instance) but it's recently become unusable, apparently due to the engines it aggregates cracking down on such things. I tried some other instances but they also don't work. It's a bummer because I thought searxng was pretty great for the last year or two.
- holysoles 11mo ago
  I've been selfhosting my own to avoid this issue. Once in awhile a search provider will be unavailable but its pretty consistent in pulling in the major ones. It doesnt require many resource and would be easy enough to run it on docker compose alongside a valkey/redis instance. I have mine on k8s but i dont think there is a helm chart easily found.

stevage 11mo ago

What exactly did it do? And why can't it do that anymore?

supriyo-biswas 11mo ago
Most likely that people are switching to LLM based search products in droves and the real demand is there.
- therein 11mo ago
  Maybe you are but people are certainly not switching to LLM based search products in droves. It is the exact opposite for me. Everyone hates the LLM based search products in my circles. Just look at this shitshow. https://imgur.com/a/lAd3UHn https://imgur.com/a/lAd3UHn
  - jdiff 11mo ago
    Your circles might have a little more technical literacy than most. I'm working part time in retail at a hardware store currently and the amount of people who come in looking for parts specified exclusively by a single AI overview is mindboggling. People repairing car engines come in looking for bolts with specific lengths, materials, and thread pitches that AI told them they needed. I haven't had anyone come back and explicitly tell me that AI led them wrong, but I'm sure they've had to make multiple trips back out here.
    - zx8080 11mo ago
      Hardware repairs done by AI recommendations sounds really scary and dangerous.
    - DrewADesign 11mo ago
      TBF: people overconfident in their DIY fixing skills are precisely the sort replacing searches with an LLM query.
  - tharkun__ 11mo ago

Taek 11mo ago

Sad to see it go, at the same time I never used it and it seems that the rationale is highly pragmatic, so you certainly won't find me protesting the decision. Privacy is an uphill battle, we should use our efforts where they make the most impact.

mkatx 11mo ago

Damn.. I just learned about this.

charcircuit 11mo ago

>Similar privacy can be achieved through the combination of a VPN and a privacy-focused browser. Mullvad sell a VPN and privacy-focused browser so how are they unable to proxy the searches themselves? They already have the needed tools developed.

jdiff 11mo ago
A VPN and a privacy-focused browser have similar practical usefulness to a private search engine. They cannot be used to create a private search engine.
- charcircuit 11mo ago
  Yes, they can. You use the browser with the VPN to search sites like Bing and then scrape the search results.
  - jdiff 11mo ago
    You don't need a whole browser for that, just a VPN. And that'd likely get their servers blocked for their users if Google's cracking down on them already.
    - charcircuit 11mo ago
      >cracking down on them already. If they crack down on it then the suggestion to use a VPN and privacy browser won't work either.
culi 11mo ago
The browser is free btw and a great browser. Basically Tor without all the Tor protocol parts

jsheard 11mo ago

It always seemed like Leta was on thin ice since it queried Googles Search API and then cached the results for 30 days, which I believe is against Googles TOS. I wonder if they finally noticed and got mad. https://developers.google.com/terms https://developers.google.com/terms > you will not [...] keep cached copies longer than permitted by the cache header

userbinator 11mo ago
[flagged]
- HotGarbage 11mo ago
  This is why we have https://4get.ca/ https://4get.ca/
  - userbinator 11mo ago
    Your browser, IP or IP range has been blocked from this 4get instance Yeah, no.
  - ericpruitt 11mo ago
    Just a warning that some of the search header images are NSFW. After seeing that they were randomized, I starting going through them and got a dildo for one. EDIT: They've got them listed under an open index on https://4get.ca/banner/ https://4get.ca/banner/ if you want to see them all.
  - GaryBluto 11mo ago
    > 4chan-inspired search engine Why would anybody ever use anything vaguely adjacent to 4chan for anything?
    - ffsm8 11mo ago
      4 Chan continues to be the best actually "free"/borderline unmoderated forum to this date. It just comes with the problems that come from allowing it's users to speak whatever they want - anonymously... Hence you usually get everything there, from the most insightful to the most offensive. You might prefer a highly moderated platform such as HN, but 4Chan has it's own strengths if looked at from a natural position

geokon 11mo ago

a bit tangential but has anyone noticed a serious degredation in quality with duckduckgo? its become completely unusable and ive had to switch to Bing :( My guess is search's days are numbered and companies are "pivoting" away to other projects a shutdown is preferable to silent bitrot

eviks 11mo ago
But ddg is just Bing? How is it worse?
- geokon 11mo ago
  i dont know their internals but its very clearly not. You can try side by side. Extremely basic searches fail. It seems intermittent and inconsisent. Maybe their backend to Bing fails and the fallback is terrible. Just guessing Right this moment it seems to work. 2 Days ago Id search for something basic like "CSS colors" and not get back a single usable result
  - lossyalgo 11mo ago
    Are you perhaps getting AI-generated trash that is just SEO optimized? I've noticed a TON more of these results in DDG and Google lately. You can now block those websites completely from DDG as of very recently (or at least I only noticed it very recently, and it's a true godsend to filter out all this AI-generated trash).
    - geokon 11mo ago
      how do you block them? but yeah its a combination of SEO trash but it also seemingly not having stuff indexed I'd search "Ask Clojure" or "Clojure Agents" and nothing from Clojure.org would show up or like "MDN SVG circle" and the MDN would just not show up. of course today im trying it and its all working haha
      - lossyalgo 11mo ago

OhioMan2943 11mo ago

fair enough- i used it a few times but brave was just more convenient- also for everyone here brave does its' own indexing and you can downrank and uprank sites and it will remember it without an accout

mouse-5346 11mo ago
How has your experience with brave been privacy wise? Do they have an advertising network? Do they have sponsored search results or data harvesting?

IlikeKitties 11mo ago

If you want good search results, open up a tor browser and use yandex.ru. The difference in search result quality is eye-opening. Still hope Russia looks like Berlin in '45 soon but until then, you can't deny they got the better search engine.

donohoe 11mo ago

I use Mullvad for VPN and how no idea they had this! Are there other services should I be aware of?

Ylpertnodi 11mo ago
Mullvad browser.

wafriedemann 11mo ago

more important than a proxy is having an alternative to google because it is crazy how much they censor search results. just add brave search as a secondary.

dvntsemicolon 11mo ago

Yeah I expected that to happen eventually. It's a shame.

jeanlucas 11mo ago

Well, I called it out 5 months ago. It wasn't viable. :( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44117601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44117601