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Are you aware of any resources for how to combat colleagues aiming to start a union? I am personally opposed to being part of a union.

deleted 1y ago
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vkou 1y ago
If you don't like the people you're working with, you could quit. You could also vote no on a unionization vote, or just not join. I'm sure your loyalty will get a special consideration when the next round of arbitrary layoffs (coupled with record-breaking profits) happens.
nevon 1y ago
I have a simple solution for you: don't join a union if you don't want to be part of one.
- CamperBob2 1y ago
  That option isn't always available, at least in the US. Unless you live in a right-to-work state, you may be forced to join the union as a condition of employment. Somehow this is seen as "more progressive."
  - worik 11mo ago
    There is a conflicting tension. Freeriding If a union negotiates better conditions at a workplace, who should be subject to them? Everybody, of course IMO But what of people who never paid union dues? There is no nice tidy solution to that tension, only messy ones that impinge on a freedom somewhere It is worth unionising, voluntarily
deleted 1y ago
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ElevenLathe 1y ago
Just don't join. Closed shops are already illegal in the US so nobody can make you.
- dmitrygr 1y ago
  > Closed shops are already illegal in the US I do wonder what country American Airlines operates in then… https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-fired-two-flight-attendants-and-the-union-made-them-do-it/ https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-fired-two-flig...
  - travisjungroth 1y ago
    I don’t know about this case specifically, but airlines frequently have different labor laws. They’ll be the exception to all sorts of unqualified statements.
  - Brybry 1y ago
    Per AA's 10-K, in 2024 87% of American Airlines employees were represented by a union[1]. So according to that source it sounds like the people who were fired were union members that didn't pay their dues. They could surely have paid their dues and left the union and kept their jobs (or could have never joined the union to begin with). [1] https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/42651/html#:~:text=were%20represented%20by%20various%20labor%20unions https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/42651/html#:~:text...
    - dmitrygr 11mo ago
      100% of flight attendants are union members and it is a closed shop as per AA's FA union and per AA.
      - Brybry 11mo ago
        So looks like you're right but there's also some weird language technicality for "closed shop" where it's really a "union shop". Per the APFA contract[1] employees are forced to join the union within 60 days of assignment as a flight attendant. This is technically considered a union shop (not a closed shop) because it doesn't require people to be union members before being hired. Under the Taft-Hartley Act a lot of states (and in some situations, court decisions) have made this illegal[2] via right-to-work laws but airlines are covered under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. § 152)[3] which allows it (upheld by the US Supreme Court in Railway Employes' Department v. Hanson, 351 U.S. 225)[4] . So, I was wrong and the employees had no choice but continue to be union members and pay dues or be fired because of airline-specific labor law. [1] https://www.apfa.org/contract/ https://www.apfa.org/contract/ [page 237, 35-10] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act [3] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:45%20section:152%20edition:prelim)#:~:text=Eleventh https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:45%20section:... [4] https://www.loc.gov/resource/usrep.usrep351225/?pdfPage=1 https://www.loc.gov/resource/usrep.usrep351225/?pdfPage=1
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
toomuchtodo 1y ago
Support for unions in the US is at record highs, so pick carefully where you work I suppose or work as a consultant with no labor protections. https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro-union-generation/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro... https://thehill.com/business/4854173-union-approval-surges-post-strikes/ https://thehill.com/business/4854173-union-approval-surges-p... https://news.gallup.com/poll/12751/labor-unions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/12751/labor-unions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.asp...
000ooo000 1y ago
Are you required to be part of this union, if it forms?
dontlaugh 1y ago
[flagged]
- phil21 1y ago
  Or just someone in a different phase of their career than a union typically helps out. Unions absolutely hold back young high performers from advancing rapidly and standing out from the crowd. I was part of a few in my younger years and quickly learned they were a detriment to my earnings due to them favoring seniority and status quo over everything else. Once you hit a certain level and stop advancing quickly the equation tends to change, and you want to be the one protected from the young whipper snappers willing to outwork you. It’s a selfish way of thinking perhaps, but jumping from union shops to non-union tripled my wages in the time I’d have made about 40% more the first few years of entering the workforce. Not all unions need to be structured this way - but they tend to devolve into organizations whose primary focus is protecting the old guard over everything else. At this point of my life a union would probably be a net win for me, but only because I’d be able to enter a job at a fairly high seniority/pay level. Then vote contracts that give my cohort more benefits than those starting out. From a game theory standpoint a union would be for the greater good at the expense of the few. If you are part of the few at any given moment of time you’d be going against your interests joining a union shop. I’ve always thought a “guild” structure would make far more sense in the tech world.
  - dontlaugh 1y ago
    Then don’t join. Actively trying to stop others from joining is not the same thing. And fwiw, I’ve been in two unions that were nothing like you described. I got better conditions and in one case pay because of union organising.
    - CamperBob2 11mo ago
      As has been pointed out many times, apparently fruitlessly, the unions have lobbied hard to ensure that you don't always have a choice in the matter.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

vkou 1y ago

If you don't like the people you're working with, you could quit. You could also vote no on a unionization vote, or just not join. I'm sure your loyalty will get a special consideration when the next round of arbitrary layoffs (coupled with record-breaking profits) happens.

nevon 1y ago

I have a simple solution for you: don't join a union if you don't want to be part of one.

CamperBob2 1y ago
That option isn't always available, at least in the US. Unless you live in a right-to-work state, you may be forced to join the union as a condition of employment. Somehow this is seen as "more progressive."
- worik 11mo ago
  There is a conflicting tension. Freeriding If a union negotiates better conditions at a workplace, who should be subject to them? Everybody, of course IMO But what of people who never paid union dues? There is no nice tidy solution to that tension, only messy ones that impinge on a freedom somewhere It is worth unionising, voluntarily

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ElevenLathe 1y ago

Just don't join. Closed shops are already illegal in the US so nobody can make you.

dmitrygr 1y ago
> Closed shops are already illegal in the US I do wonder what country American Airlines operates in then… https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-fired-two-flight-attendants-and-the-union-made-them-do-it/ https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-fired-two-flig...
- travisjungroth 1y ago
  I don’t know about this case specifically, but airlines frequently have different labor laws. They’ll be the exception to all sorts of unqualified statements.
- Brybry 1y ago
  Per AA's 10-K, in 2024 87% of American Airlines employees were represented by a union[1]. So according to that source it sounds like the people who were fired were union members that didn't pay their dues. They could surely have paid their dues and left the union and kept their jobs (or could have never joined the union to begin with). [1] https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/42651/html#:~:text=were%20represented%20by%20various%20labor%20unions https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/42651/html#:~:text...
  - dmitrygr 11mo ago
    100% of flight attendants are union members and it is a closed shop as per AA's FA union and per AA.
    - Brybry 11mo ago
      So looks like you're right but there's also some weird language technicality for "closed shop" where it's really a "union shop". Per the APFA contract[1] employees are forced to join the union within 60 days of assignment as a flight attendant. This is technically considered a union shop (not a closed shop) because it doesn't require people to be union members before being hired. Under the Taft-Hartley Act a lot of states (and in some situations, court decisions) have made this illegal[2] via right-to-work laws but airlines are covered under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. § 152)[3] which allows it (upheld by the US Supreme Court in Railway Employes' Department v. Hanson, 351 U.S. 225)[4] . So, I was wrong and the employees had no choice but continue to be union members and pay dues or be fired because of airline-specific labor law. [1] https://www.apfa.org/contract/ https://www.apfa.org/contract/ [page 237, 35-10] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act [3] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:45%20section:152%20edition:prelim)#:~:text=Eleventh https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:45%20section:... [4] https://www.loc.gov/resource/usrep.usrep351225/?pdfPage=1 https://www.loc.gov/resource/usrep.usrep351225/?pdfPage=1

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

toomuchtodo 1y ago

Support for unions in the US is at record highs, so pick carefully where you work I suppose or work as a consultant with no labor protections. https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro-union-generation/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro... https://thehill.com/business/4854173-union-approval-surges-post-strikes/ https://thehill.com/business/4854173-union-approval-surges-p... https://news.gallup.com/poll/12751/labor-unions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/12751/labor-unions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.asp...

000ooo000 1y ago

Are you required to be part of this union, if it forms?

dontlaugh 1y ago

[flagged]

phil21 1y ago
Or just someone in a different phase of their career than a union typically helps out. Unions absolutely hold back young high performers from advancing rapidly and standing out from the crowd. I was part of a few in my younger years and quickly learned they were a detriment to my earnings due to them favoring seniority and status quo over everything else. Once you hit a certain level and stop advancing quickly the equation tends to change, and you want to be the one protected from the young whipper snappers willing to outwork you. It’s a selfish way of thinking perhaps, but jumping from union shops to non-union tripled my wages in the time I’d have made about 40% more the first few years of entering the workforce. Not all unions need to be structured this way - but they tend to devolve into organizations whose primary focus is protecting the old guard over everything else. At this point of my life a union would probably be a net win for me, but only because I’d be able to enter a job at a fairly high seniority/pay level. Then vote contracts that give my cohort more benefits than those starting out. From a game theory standpoint a union would be for the greater good at the expense of the few. If you are part of the few at any given moment of time you’d be going against your interests joining a union shop. I’ve always thought a “guild” structure would make far more sense in the tech world.
- dontlaugh 1y ago
  Then don’t join. Actively trying to stop others from joining is not the same thing. And fwiw, I’ve been in two unions that were nothing like you described. I got better conditions and in one case pay because of union organising.
  - CamperBob2 11mo ago
    As has been pointed out many times, apparently fruitlessly, the unions have lobbied hard to ensure that you don't always have a choice in the matter.