5 ms·

> This has to be done carefully because prohibition breeds desire and adults will absolutely try to force the attitude of 35 year olds onto 15 year olds forgett

> This has to be done carefully because prohibition breeds desire and adults will absolutely try to force the attitude of 35 year olds onto 15 year olds forgetting a lot of life lessons have to be learned through experience and not just told. The interesting tidbit in the case of social media and smart phones is that they are at least partially pushed by the parents (I've seen plenty of examples of parents demand that their children have smartphones at school). > Everybody wants to get on the wave about how children these days are so much worse because of the new thing. > And literally as long as we have recorded human writing we have adults complaining how the children are being ruined by the new culture or new item... and I mean we have these complaints from thousands of years ago. I think there is a difference though. There is the "off my lawn" crowd of "children today are so bad because..." sure, but I think they are not the ones demanding social media bans. The bans are being motivated largely by health professionals ringing all sort of alarm bells because mental health indicators paint a pretty dire picture. These are based on actual statistics and have been confirmed many times. > So be careful, you don't have to be completely wrong to still be overreaching.

pembrook 11mo ago
Lots of bending over backwards and appeals to authority to rationalize an emotional feeling of "This time is different." Again, every generation thinks that. This time might be different. But it's probably not.
- AppleBananaPie 11mo ago
  Letting people figure out cigarettes were bad for them took a very long time, and if social media is another form of addiction why not treat it how we treat other addictive products? We could assume that this time is different and people, well children and minors specifically, will learn to avoid the addiction rather than banning them like alcohol, cigarettes and gambling. This time might be different. But it's probably not.
  - card_zero 11mo ago
    Books, for instance. Some people will read for five hours without pausing, and they can use three or four books every week.
    - Loughla 11mo ago
      What is your point? I'm afraid I missed the point of your statement.
      - DocTomoe 11mo ago
        There was a - very similar - moral panic in the 1700s about young people 'reading excessively', which was blamed for escapism, unhappiness[1] and even increases in suicide rates (see: Werther Effect). The language used was 'reading addiction' - much like todays 'smartphone addiction' or, more modern, AI-related 'illnesses'. Today, the panic is that kids read too little, or the wrong stuff. What is and isn't societally desirable changes. The tactic to ban the currently undesirable behaviour persists. Moral panics tell us more about generational dynamics and power structures than the medium itself.. [1] https://www.historytoday.com/archive/medias-first-moral-panic https://www.historytoday.com/archive/medias-first-moral-pani...
        AppleBananaPie 11mo ago
        What about the health and wellbeing of individuals? Were there well studied negative health impacts from reading excessively during this very similar scenario? I'm not a historian so I'm curious to see the parallels because right now it looks like we're talking about two completely different things.
        DocTomoe 11mo ago
        Increased suicide rates were being discussed, and there were doctors claiming they had empirical evidence (worse eyesight, loss of sense of reality, 'melancholy' (aka: depression) ...). Of course, that was 200 years ago, so our standards of 'rigorous empiricism' can hardly be compared to what they had. But the patterns still are eerily similar. Also, note how modern diagnostics not only concern the well-being of the media-consuming/delusional individual, but also their environment. Polemically speaking: You can be perfectly happy being weird, if your environment feels negatively affected by you, you technically still are a psychiatrical case and need 'fixing' according to the DSM. Hell is other people, only the young can defend themselves and their interests less and are easier being picked on.
- placatedmayhem 11mo ago
  > Again, every generation thinks that. > This time might be different. But it's probably not. And this is an appeal to tradition. This article[1] from 2024 discusses this the studies on this topic. It seems to me the results are mixed, but conclusions range between social media being neutral to harmful. There is a lot in that article, so it's worth a read. [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/728739 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/728739
  - pembrook 11mo ago
    When appealing to the authority of academic studies, it's very important to be aware of the replication crisis for studies in the field of Psychology specifically, which is one of the worst offenders. Reproducibility has been found to be as low as 36% [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility_Project
    - rablackburn 11mo ago
      That was not an appeal to the authority of academic papers so much as the OP trying to give context for the information that has informed their position. Your responses have been an appeal to tradition (“every generation thinks that”), and a dismissal of the information because of the reproducibility crisis. Ie you are arguing that we (humans) struggle with discerning Truth, and therefore we are wrong, and everything is fine. But taking the negative position is just as epistemologically flawed. Hence the OPs attempt to discuss the best data we can find.
ghostpepper 11mo ago
> The bans are being motivated largely by health professionals ringing all sort of alarm bells because mental health indicators paint a pretty dire picture. These are based on actual statistics and have been confirmed many times. Do the stats prove that cell phones are the cause of the dire mental health indicators? Or at least that there is a correlation?
liamdgray 11mo ago
Some students even wish for a ban to reduce the pressure to keep up with social media. That reminded me of Warren Buffet asking for his kind and to be taxed more.
- throwaway-blaze 11mo ago
  By "his kind" you mean human beings?
  - phatfish 11mo ago
    Just the fuck you rich, I'm buying a football team for a laugh human beings. Not that Warren would necessarily buy a football team for laugh, but that "kind".
  - encrypted_bird 11mo ago
    [flagged]
    - defrost 11mo ago
      The issue isn't that billionaires aren't human, the problem very much is that billionaires are regular petty spiteful human beings with poor judgement, impulse control, odd beliefs and an the utter lack of checks and balances that can be disregarded when a human has a billion and more. NotAllBillionaires, sure .. but it only takes a few to screw over millions of other humans on a whim.
      - encrypted_bird 11mo ago
        I agree with you. Frankly, imho, billionaires shouldn't even exist. No one person can get that much wealth, that much power, that much influence, without losing their humanity, their decency. It's just not possible because the only way to accrue that much wealth is to do horrifically indecent things. So, do I recognize what you're saying? Certainly. But I won't be shedding a tear of sympathy for them. I lose all sympathy for them when they step on the necks of everyday people to get where they are.
colechristensen 11mo ago
"but this time it's different" has also been a universal historical argument >The bans are being motivated largely by health professionals ringing all sort of alarm bells because mental health indicators paint a pretty dire picture. Honestly you could just cut and paste the same arguments about jazz music in the 1920s or rock music in the later 20th century and they'd be indistinguishable. Just replace the mentions of jazz with social media topics and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference whether it was an article today or 100 years ago. "Health professionals" wringing hands about social media and jazz music in hilariously similar terms a century apart to a bunch of old people who are convinced the kids these days are going to shit because of the things they like to pay attention to. https://daily.jstor.org/when-jazz-was-a-public-health-crisis/ https://daily.jstor.org/when-jazz-was-a-public-health-crisis... Young people ARE SUPPOSED TO make poor decisions and be stressed out about it. Middle aged people are supposed to clutch their pearls and wail about how this time it's different and truly awful (but what we did as kids was reasonable)
- phatfish 11mo ago
  But all the middle aged people are wasting their lives on the junk information addiction train as well. It's not some generational divide. It's like a parent telling their kid not smoke, while they are still addicted and smoking in the garden themselves.
- edmundsauto 11mo ago
  Making bad decisions is only a net benefit if they can recover from them in time. Then it becomes a lesson and not an anchor. With addictive behaviors like drugs, nicotine included… making the early mistake ends up being a permanent mistake.

pembrook 11mo ago

Lots of bending over backwards and appeals to authority to rationalize an emotional feeling of "This time is different." Again, every generation thinks that. This time might be different. But it's probably not.

AppleBananaPie 11mo ago
Letting people figure out cigarettes were bad for them took a very long time, and if social media is another form of addiction why not treat it how we treat other addictive products? We could assume that this time is different and people, well children and minors specifically, will learn to avoid the addiction rather than banning them like alcohol, cigarettes and gambling. This time might be different. But it's probably not.
- card_zero 11mo ago
  Books, for instance. Some people will read for five hours without pausing, and they can use three or four books every week.
  - Loughla 11mo ago
    What is your point? I'm afraid I missed the point of your statement.
    - DocTomoe 11mo ago
      There was a - very similar - moral panic in the 1700s about young people 'reading excessively', which was blamed for escapism, unhappiness[1] and even increases in suicide rates (see: Werther Effect). The language used was 'reading addiction' - much like todays 'smartphone addiction' or, more modern, AI-related 'illnesses'. Today, the panic is that kids read too little, or the wrong stuff. What is and isn't societally desirable changes. The tactic to ban the currently undesirable behaviour persists. Moral panics tell us more about generational dynamics and power structures than the medium itself.. [1] https://www.historytoday.com/archive/medias-first-moral-panic https://www.historytoday.com/archive/medias-first-moral-pani...
      - AppleBananaPie 11mo ago
        What about the health and wellbeing of individuals? Were there well studied negative health impacts from reading excessively during this very similar scenario? I'm not a historian so I'm curious to see the parallels because right now it looks like we're talking about two completely different things.
        DocTomoe 11mo ago
        Increased suicide rates were being discussed, and there were doctors claiming they had empirical evidence (worse eyesight, loss of sense of reality, 'melancholy' (aka: depression) ...). Of course, that was 200 years ago, so our standards of 'rigorous empiricism' can hardly be compared to what they had. But the patterns still are eerily similar. Also, note how modern diagnostics not only concern the well-being of the media-consuming/delusional individual, but also their environment. Polemically speaking: You can be perfectly happy being weird, if your environment feels negatively affected by you, you technically still are a psychiatrical case and need 'fixing' according to the DSM. Hell is other people, only the young can defend themselves and their interests less and are easier being picked on.
placatedmayhem 11mo ago
> Again, every generation thinks that. > This time might be different. But it's probably not. And this is an appeal to tradition. This article[1] from 2024 discusses this the studies on this topic. It seems to me the results are mixed, but conclusions range between social media being neutral to harmful. There is a lot in that article, so it's worth a read. [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/728739 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/728739
- pembrook 11mo ago
  When appealing to the authority of academic studies, it's very important to be aware of the replication crisis for studies in the field of Psychology specifically, which is one of the worst offenders. Reproducibility has been found to be as low as 36% [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility_Project
  - rablackburn 11mo ago
    That was not an appeal to the authority of academic papers so much as the OP trying to give context for the information that has informed their position. Your responses have been an appeal to tradition (“every generation thinks that”), and a dismissal of the information because of the reproducibility crisis. Ie you are arguing that we (humans) struggle with discerning Truth, and therefore we are wrong, and everything is fine. But taking the negative position is just as epistemologically flawed. Hence the OPs attempt to discuss the best data we can find.

ghostpepper 11mo ago

> The bans are being motivated largely by health professionals ringing all sort of alarm bells because mental health indicators paint a pretty dire picture. These are based on actual statistics and have been confirmed many times. Do the stats prove that cell phones are the cause of the dire mental health indicators? Or at least that there is a correlation?

liamdgray 11mo ago

Some students even wish for a ban to reduce the pressure to keep up with social media. That reminded me of Warren Buffet asking for his kind and to be taxed more.

throwaway-blaze 11mo ago
By "his kind" you mean human beings?
- phatfish 11mo ago
  Just the fuck you rich, I'm buying a football team for a laugh human beings. Not that Warren would necessarily buy a football team for laugh, but that "kind".
- encrypted_bird 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 11mo ago
    The issue isn't that billionaires aren't human, the problem very much is that billionaires are regular petty spiteful human beings with poor judgement, impulse control, odd beliefs and an the utter lack of checks and balances that can be disregarded when a human has a billion and more. NotAllBillionaires, sure .. but it only takes a few to screw over millions of other humans on a whim.
    - encrypted_bird 11mo ago
      I agree with you. Frankly, imho, billionaires shouldn't even exist. No one person can get that much wealth, that much power, that much influence, without losing their humanity, their decency. It's just not possible because the only way to accrue that much wealth is to do horrifically indecent things. So, do I recognize what you're saying? Certainly. But I won't be shedding a tear of sympathy for them. I lose all sympathy for them when they step on the necks of everyday people to get where they are.

colechristensen 11mo ago

"but this time it's different" has also been a universal historical argument >The bans are being motivated largely by health professionals ringing all sort of alarm bells because mental health indicators paint a pretty dire picture. Honestly you could just cut and paste the same arguments about jazz music in the 1920s or rock music in the later 20th century and they'd be indistinguishable. Just replace the mentions of jazz with social media topics and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference whether it was an article today or 100 years ago. "Health professionals" wringing hands about social media and jazz music in hilariously similar terms a century apart to a bunch of old people who are convinced the kids these days are going to shit because of the things they like to pay attention to. https://daily.jstor.org/when-jazz-was-a-public-health-crisis/ https://daily.jstor.org/when-jazz-was-a-public-health-crisis... Young people ARE SUPPOSED TO make poor decisions and be stressed out about it. Middle aged people are supposed to clutch their pearls and wail about how this time it's different and truly awful (but what we did as kids was reasonable)

phatfish 11mo ago
But all the middle aged people are wasting their lives on the junk information addiction train as well. It's not some generational divide. It's like a parent telling their kid not smoke, while they are still addicted and smoking in the garden themselves.
edmundsauto 11mo ago
Making bad decisions is only a net benefit if they can recover from them in time. Then it becomes a lesson and not an anchor. With addictive behaviors like drugs, nicotine included… making the early mistake ends up being a permanent mistake.