5 ms·

Is there anything that Vodafone customers can do legally to punish Vodafone or not delivering on their broadband contracts? If you're paying for a 1Gbps connec

by Lio 1y ago

Is there anything that Vodafone customers can do legally to punish Vodafone or not delivering on their broadband contracts? If you're paying for a 1Gbps connection and Netflix is only able to stream to you at 0.93 Mbps because Vodafone or Inter.link are choking off the supply, surely that's breach of contract on Vodafone's part? I'm sure Cory Doctorow has a word for what's happening here.

tracker1 1y ago
Are there competing options, or are they a monopoly?
- lifestyleguru 1y ago
  In Germany in specific building there is only one provider available in your telephone socket, and one in your cable socket in your apartment. Frequently there is no cable socket.
  - amaccuish 1y ago
    That's not relevant. Over a Deutsche Telekom phone line you can choose an ISP. The ISP sometimes has a layer two connection to you and therefore has their own infrastructure or they have a layer 3 connection in which case you suffer from the Telekom policies. Layer 2 = their infrastructure connects you to the internet Layer 3 = theyre literally just a reseller, DTAG is providing your internet connection, the ISP just billing etc.
    - lifestyleguru 1y ago
      That's too many words for simply saying "The fastest available DSL is 16Mbit/s and the customer service will be rude and useless".
- aidenn0 1y ago
  Sounds like their largest competitor (DT) is already doing this.
- okanat 1y ago
  Yes and no. There are other providers in Germany. However, with the EU's neoliberal privatization policy the governments privatized many existing infrastructure. Vodafone bought the previous government company that owned all of the the cable TV infrastructure of Germany. So they are a monopoly of a particular type of internet connection. Depending on the place the alternatives could be too slow since Germany also has an aging population that do not {care about, demand} higher internet speeds and didn't upgrade its copper infrastructure due to corruption.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    Some new apartments also simply lack phone lines. No idea how that's legal (since there is no competition at all on DOCSIS, unlike on DSL, in Germany), but it's a thing these days.
- fuzzy2 1y ago
  No monopoly. Only for cable internet, which may be a possible argument. For landline internet (DSL), there's plenty of alternatives.
  - Retric 1y ago
    High speed internet is a market not just internet access. Email might not care that your on a DSL connection but a streamer can’t generally use DSL as a substitute.
    - namibj 1y ago
      They mean VDSL; that's 100~200 Mbit down and 10~24~50 Mbit up.
      - Retric 1y ago
        VDSL2 can hit those speeds in optimal conditions, but at the end of last year ~14% of Germans have internet under 10Mbps and ~17% where 10-30Mbps.
      - account42 11mo ago
        Which is laughably bad in 2025.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    Unfortunately, having a landline capable of DSL is no longer the default in Germany. Some apartment buildings exlusively offer DOCSIS via a single provider (as there's never been any unbundling of the DOCSIS "local loop"; presumably under the assumption that a landline will always be available anyway?). If that one provider is oversubscribed, you're pretty much out of luck.
- growt 1y ago
  Afaik almost a monopoly: there is Deutsche Telekom which does the same thing and Vodafone. I think apart from some local providers almost everybody else is just a reseller of one of the two.
  - fweimer 1y ago
    There are resellers that do not just rebrand a whitebox product, but have their own IP addresses, network and peering polices. Their customers are not necessarily impacted by the IP peering policies of the company that owns the access network.
- aktuel 1y ago
  Depends on the region. Often there are smaller regional companies providing fiber internet. Prices for these fiber connections a still somewhat higher than the cheapest vodafone tier, but you also get better service for your money.
- hilbert42 1y ago
  This is a bit messy but if there are completing options at a given location install multiple ISPs and run them concurrently and log the details—download speeds, etc. There's nothing as good as hard verifiable data—even if regulators play hardball and favor ISPs then you've the evidence to whip up political action (claim biased decisions, etc.).
- rurban 1y ago
  There's no monopoly, it is a cartel. Most big businesses in Germany operate in cartels to fuck the customer.
m_gloeckl 1y ago
You can file a complaint with the "Federal ministry for digital transformation" (formed this year). It does actually work, but it's a lengthy process. I did force my cell phone carrier to grant me proper 4G speeds last year, after spending many hours with their help line and ultimately complaining to the (then) ministry of transportation and digital infrastructure.
- afeuerstein 1y ago
  Can you elaborate on what was wrong with your cellular connection?
  - m_gloeckl 1y ago
    My plan advertises "up to 50 Mbit/s" on a 4G connection. I was getting less than 1 Mbit/s a lot of the time. Websites and videos would not load properly. I downloaded the app of the german ministry that allows you to take speed tests and file a complaint. After multiple weeks of measuring connection speeds on the cellular network, I was able to file a complaint.
    - antongribok 1y ago
      What did the provider do? Did they put your IMEI onto some list of other customers that complained, where all of you get better network prioritization? I'm genuinely curious.
lukan 1y ago
"If you're paying for a 1Gbps connection" That's why you are paying for a "up to" 1Gbps connection. (I think it was already a struggle that they had to put the "up to" in the big advertisement)
- Telaneo 1y ago
  Surely there's a reasonable expectation that Netflix would work at decent speeds, especially given that Netflix's infrastructure, nor the network load as a whole are to blame, but rather the specific ISP bureaucracy? Getting 1/1000 the listed speed does not strike me as something even a 75 year old computer neophyte of a judge would take kindly too, unless it were for very good reasons.
  - fluoridation 1y ago
    I don't think there really is much that can be done. Even under ideal conditions, an ISP could only possibly guarantee the advertised link speed between you and their routers, not between you and any particular node on the Internet. Is it possible an ISP might be doing things that harm the QoS? Yeah, sure. But the angle to approach that problem is not by complaining about instances of limited bandwidth.
    - Telaneo 1y ago
      But the true link speed's not even what's being asked for. 4K Netflix never goes above 20 Mbps as far as I know, so getting just 1/50 the advertised speed to one of the most well-known internet services in existence, hardly seems like a big ask, especially when the only reason that it can't reach that speed or higher is because of the ISP, given that swapping to one that aren't being knobheads about it fixes the problem. It should be the responsibility of the ISP to keep links to other parts of the internet as open as possible. If real-world constraints prevent the speed from being all that high, because it's a shitty server in Australia, then that's understandable. This however, isn't that. All I'm getting from this is that it's a good idea to label ISPs utilities and bring the hammer down if they're being knobheads about it.
toast0 1y ago
There's definitely not anything in the contract that promises performance to a 3rd party, especially not in a residential contract. The legal options are switch to a different ISP and/or start a new one. Not always easy or practical, but there you go. Who is to say where the performance problem is? Certainly not your contract. Maybe if the last mile is cronically congested, or between the local aggregation switch and their regional exchange points, you might have a legal case. But if the issue is insufficient connectivity between their network and other networks, I would be very surprised if the contract terms covered that at all. There's a bunch of networks throughout the world where their policies mean you can get more economically acheive better connectivity to their customers by hosting outside the geographic boundaries of the network rather than inside it. Doesn't make sense from a theoretical point of view, but when German ISPs won't interconnect within Germany, serve their customers from Poland or France and the connectivity picture may change significantly. Worst case, serve them from the US (but the latency may be too high)

by Lio 1y ago

tracker1 1y ago

Are there competing options, or are they a monopoly?

lifestyleguru 1y ago
In Germany in specific building there is only one provider available in your telephone socket, and one in your cable socket in your apartment. Frequently there is no cable socket.
- amaccuish 1y ago
  That's not relevant. Over a Deutsche Telekom phone line you can choose an ISP. The ISP sometimes has a layer two connection to you and therefore has their own infrastructure or they have a layer 3 connection in which case you suffer from the Telekom policies. Layer 2 = their infrastructure connects you to the internet Layer 3 = theyre literally just a reseller, DTAG is providing your internet connection, the ISP just billing etc.
  - lifestyleguru 1y ago
    That's too many words for simply saying "The fastest available DSL is 16Mbit/s and the customer service will be rude and useless".
aidenn0 1y ago
Sounds like their largest competitor (DT) is already doing this.
okanat 1y ago
Yes and no. There are other providers in Germany. However, with the EU's neoliberal privatization policy the governments privatized many existing infrastructure. Vodafone bought the previous government company that owned all of the the cable TV infrastructure of Germany. So they are a monopoly of a particular type of internet connection. Depending on the place the alternatives could be too slow since Germany also has an aging population that do not {care about, demand} higher internet speeds and didn't upgrade its copper infrastructure due to corruption.
- lxgr 1y ago
  Some new apartments also simply lack phone lines. No idea how that's legal (since there is no competition at all on DOCSIS, unlike on DSL, in Germany), but it's a thing these days.
fuzzy2 1y ago
No monopoly. Only for cable internet, which may be a possible argument. For landline internet (DSL), there's plenty of alternatives.
- Retric 1y ago
  High speed internet is a market not just internet access. Email might not care that your on a DSL connection but a streamer can’t generally use DSL as a substitute.
  - namibj 1y ago
    They mean VDSL; that's 100~200 Mbit down and 10~24~50 Mbit up.
    - Retric 1y ago
      VDSL2 can hit those speeds in optimal conditions, but at the end of last year ~14% of Germans have internet under 10Mbps and ~17% where 10-30Mbps.
    - account42 11mo ago
      Which is laughably bad in 2025.
- lxgr 1y ago
  Unfortunately, having a landline capable of DSL is no longer the default in Germany. Some apartment buildings exlusively offer DOCSIS via a single provider (as there's never been any unbundling of the DOCSIS "local loop"; presumably under the assumption that a landline will always be available anyway?). If that one provider is oversubscribed, you're pretty much out of luck.
growt 1y ago
Afaik almost a monopoly: there is Deutsche Telekom which does the same thing and Vodafone. I think apart from some local providers almost everybody else is just a reseller of one of the two.
- fweimer 1y ago
  There are resellers that do not just rebrand a whitebox product, but have their own IP addresses, network and peering polices. Their customers are not necessarily impacted by the IP peering policies of the company that owns the access network.
aktuel 1y ago
Depends on the region. Often there are smaller regional companies providing fiber internet. Prices for these fiber connections a still somewhat higher than the cheapest vodafone tier, but you also get better service for your money.
hilbert42 1y ago
This is a bit messy but if there are completing options at a given location install multiple ISPs and run them concurrently and log the details—download speeds, etc. There's nothing as good as hard verifiable data—even if regulators play hardball and favor ISPs then you've the evidence to whip up political action (claim biased decisions, etc.).
rurban 1y ago
There's no monopoly, it is a cartel. Most big businesses in Germany operate in cartels to fuck the customer.

m_gloeckl 1y ago

You can file a complaint with the "Federal ministry for digital transformation" (formed this year). It does actually work, but it's a lengthy process. I did force my cell phone carrier to grant me proper 4G speeds last year, after spending many hours with their help line and ultimately complaining to the (then) ministry of transportation and digital infrastructure.

afeuerstein 1y ago
Can you elaborate on what was wrong with your cellular connection?
- m_gloeckl 1y ago
  My plan advertises "up to 50 Mbit/s" on a 4G connection. I was getting less than 1 Mbit/s a lot of the time. Websites and videos would not load properly. I downloaded the app of the german ministry that allows you to take speed tests and file a complaint. After multiple weeks of measuring connection speeds on the cellular network, I was able to file a complaint.
  - antongribok 1y ago
    What did the provider do? Did they put your IMEI onto some list of other customers that complained, where all of you get better network prioritization? I'm genuinely curious.

lukan 1y ago

"If you're paying for a 1Gbps connection" That's why you are paying for a "up to" 1Gbps connection. (I think it was already a struggle that they had to put the "up to" in the big advertisement)

Telaneo 1y ago
Surely there's a reasonable expectation that Netflix would work at decent speeds, especially given that Netflix's infrastructure, nor the network load as a whole are to blame, but rather the specific ISP bureaucracy? Getting 1/1000 the listed speed does not strike me as something even a 75 year old computer neophyte of a judge would take kindly too, unless it were for very good reasons.
- fluoridation 1y ago
  I don't think there really is much that can be done. Even under ideal conditions, an ISP could only possibly guarantee the advertised link speed between you and their routers, not between you and any particular node on the Internet. Is it possible an ISP might be doing things that harm the QoS? Yeah, sure. But the angle to approach that problem is not by complaining about instances of limited bandwidth.
  - Telaneo 1y ago
    But the true link speed's not even what's being asked for. 4K Netflix never goes above 20 Mbps as far as I know, so getting just 1/50 the advertised speed to one of the most well-known internet services in existence, hardly seems like a big ask, especially when the only reason that it can't reach that speed or higher is because of the ISP, given that swapping to one that aren't being knobheads about it fixes the problem. It should be the responsibility of the ISP to keep links to other parts of the internet as open as possible. If real-world constraints prevent the speed from being all that high, because it's a shitty server in Australia, then that's understandable. This however, isn't that. All I'm getting from this is that it's a good idea to label ISPs utilities and bring the hammer down if they're being knobheads about it.

toast0 1y ago

There's definitely not anything in the contract that promises performance to a 3rd party, especially not in a residential contract. The legal options are switch to a different ISP and/or start a new one. Not always easy or practical, but there you go. Who is to say where the performance problem is? Certainly not your contract. Maybe if the last mile is cronically congested, or between the local aggregation switch and their regional exchange points, you might have a legal case. But if the issue is insufficient connectivity between their network and other networks, I would be very surprised if the contract terms covered that at all. There's a bunch of networks throughout the world where their policies mean you can get more economically acheive better connectivity to their customers by hosting outside the geographic boundaries of the network rather than inside it. Doesn't make sense from a theoretical point of view, but when German ISPs won't interconnect within Germany, serve their customers from Poland or France and the connectivity picture may change significantly. Worst case, serve them from the US (but the latency may be too high)