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Destroying the open web instead of advocating to fix one of the better underutilized browser technologies for a more Profitable Google. I will not forget the n
by righthand 1y ago
Destroying the open web instead of advocating to fix one of the better underutilized browser technologies for a more Profitable Google.
I will not forget the name Mason Freed, destroyer of open collaborative technology.
- tptacek 1y agoDidn't this effort start with Mozilla and not Google? I think you will in fact forget the name Mason Freed, just like most of us forgot about XSLT.
- simoncion 1y ago> Didn't this effort start with Mozilla and not Google? Maybe round one of it like ten years ago did? From what I understand, it's a Google employee who opened the "Hey, I want to get rid of this and have no plans to provide a zero-effort-for-users replacement." Github Issue a few months back.
- JimDabell 1y ago> It was opened by a Chrome engineer after at least two meetings where a Mozilla engineer raised the topic, and where there was apparently vendor support for it. — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953349
- simoncion 1y agoI don't see any evidence of that claim from the materials I have available to me. [0] is the Github Issue I mentioned. [1] is the WHATNOT meeting notes linked to from that GH Issue... though I have no idea who smaug is. [0] <https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523> [1] <https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11146#issuecomment-2759059949 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11146#issuecomment-275...>
- indolering 1y agoIt started with Mozilla, Apple, and Opera jumping ship and forming WHATWG. That stopped new XML related technologies from being adopted in browsers twenty years ago. Google is just closing the casket and burying the body.
- righthand 1y agoWhy would I forget about XSLT a really good technology pushed to the wayside by bad faith actors? Why would I forget Mason Freed? A person dedicating themselves to ruining perfectly good technology that needs a little love. Do you have some sort of exclusive short term memory or something where you can’t remember someone’s name? Bizarre reply. Other people may have had a similarly lazy idea, but Mason is the one pushing and leading the charge. It seems maybe you want me to blame this on Google as a whole but that would mean bypassing blame and giving into their ridiculous bs.
- tptacek 1y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NqLGp6qRuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NqLGp6qRuU
- righthand 1y agoAh you’re just a Google boot licker. Sorry I wasted my time responding, I thought you were serious.
- tptacek 1y agoI'm not a Google boot licker, I just hate XSLT, like (empirically) most developers.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- righthand 1y agoWell maybe you should at least start licking some boots because your attitude towards a templating language is the billion dollar corpo way. You fit right in and could at least get some perks out shitting on technology you probably never fully understood and you get to be a better contributor to helping close off the web. All of the disliked technologies and people who use them will be gone one day as we champion these destructive initiatives onward. Thank you hater!
- dfabulich 1y agoBlame Apple and Mozilla, too, then. They all agreed to remove it. They all agreed because XSLT is extremely unpopular and worse than JS in every way. Performance/bloat? Worse. Security? MUCH worse. Language design? Unimaginably worse. EDIT: I wrote thousands of lines of XSLT circa 2005. I'm grateful that I'll never do that again.
- stickfigure 1y agoThis is only repeated by people who have never used it. XSLT is still a great way of easily transforming xml-like documents. It's orders of magnitude more concise than transforming using Javascript or other general programming languages. And people are actively re-inventing XSLT for JSON (see `jq`).
- mschuster91 1y agoI actually do have to work with raw XML and XSLTs every once in a while for a java-based CMS and holy hell, it's nasty. Java in general... Maven, trying to implement extremely simple things in Gradle (e.g. only execute a specific Thing as part of the pipeline when certain conditions are met) is an utter headache to do in the pom.xml because XML is not a programming language!
- stickfigure 1y agoIt is an unfortunate fact about our industry that all build tools suck. Tell me what your favorite build tool is and I can point at hundreds of HN threads ripping it to shreds. Maybe it's NPM? Cue the screams... I agree though, "XML is not a programming language" and attempts to use it that way have produced poor results. You should have seen the `ant` era! But this is broader than XML - look at pretty much every popular CI system for "YAML is not a programming language". That doesn't mean that XML isn't useful. Just not as a programming language.
- mschuster91 1y ago> It is an unfortunate fact about our industry that all build tools suck. Tell me what your favorite build tool is and I can point at hundreds of HN threads ripping it to shreds. Maybe it's NPM? Cue the screams... npm isn't even a build tool, it's a package manager and at that it's actually gotten quite decent - the fact that the JS ecosystem at large doesn't give a fuck about respecting semantic versioning or keeps reinventing the wheel or that NodeJS / JavaScript itself lacks a decent standard library aren't faults of npm ;) Maven and Gradle in contrast are one-stop-shops, both build orchestrators and dependency managers. As for ant, oh hell yes I'm aware of that. The most horrid build system I encountered in my decade worth of tenure as "the guy who can figure out pretty much any nuclear submarine project (aka, only surfaces every few years after everyone working on it departed)" involved Gradle, which then orchestrated Maven and Ant, oh and the project was built on a Jenkins that was half DSL, half clicked together in the web UI, and the runner that executed the builds was a manually set up, "organically grown" server. That one was a holy damn mess to understand, unwind, clean up and migrate to Gitlab. > look at pretty much every popular CI system for "YAML is not a programming language". Oh yes... I only had the misfortune of having to code for Github Actions once in my life time, it's utter fucking madness compared to GitLab.
- rvz 1y ago> Destroying the open web instead of advocating to fix one of the better underutilized browser technologies for a more Profitable Google. Google, Mozilla and Apple do not care if it doesn't make them money, unless you want to pay them billions to keep that feature? > I will not forget the name Mason Freed, destroyer of open collaborative technology. This is quite petty.
- righthand 1y agoSo is blatantly ignoring pushback against removing a feature like this. Eye for an eye.