4 ms·

This is such a common thing and tolerated you have to wonder whether it's actually immoral. I've met many people on my travels who went to Europe on tourist vis

This is such a common thing and tolerated you have to wonder whether it's actually immoral. I've met many people on my travels who went to Europe on tourist visas, got work and then got to stay legally later. No one was deported. All of these were people in low-paying services industries, jobs Europeans don't usually want (waiters, cleaners, etc). The only ones that had issues with immigration were my qualified worker friends who got a work visa and then the company had layoffs while they were there, losing their sponsorship. People with masters degrees who had to scramble to find new work in 30 days or face deportation. It's hard not to think that's intentional. I have a nuanced opinion because it's a rather complex subject but it's just a weird thing to have seen happen. As a tourist I had to prove up and down I wasn't going to stay there only to see no one else cares outside the airports. There's obvious wage suppression going on with these policies but these waiters and cleaners also had college degrees from good institutions, probably more qualified than some citizens.

ohyoutravel 1y ago
Borders of countries are fundamentally human constructs. There is no morality associated with crossing them legally or illegally. This is the difference between a law declaring something illegal because they think it is better for society (a parking ticket, say) and a law created that require moral turpitude (murder, say).
- layer8 1y ago
  Morality is a human construct as well, so I don’t quite get your point.
- DaSHacka 1y ago
  A country with no borders is not a country at all, merely an "economic zone" that can be leached until dry.
  - mock-possum 1y ago
    What is the mechanism whereby an economic zone is leached, such that borders would protect it?
    - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
      I don't have hard data yet but I'm pretty sure some cities have suburbs outside them, connected via road, that rich people use as tax havens so they can live near a city without being subject to the laws and taxation of the city
      - array_key_first 1y ago
        Right but if you go into a country then you're in the country, not in the outskirts. You still pay taxes (generally...), and, in many countries, don't get any social services. If anything, many formally-colonial countries are leeching off their illegal immigrants, not the other way around.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        Countries are generally big and with cities on both sides of a border so that doesn't seem like it would be a big worry for them.
- doctorpangloss 1y ago
  Ha ha, “no morality,” when it’s people you like. You’re saying pogroms aren’t immoral? That’s a “legal” border crossing!
nicbou 1y ago
> I've met many people on my travels who went to Europe on tourist visas, got work and then got to stay legally later. That's completely legal for some nationalities, at least in Germany. §41 AufenthV allows people from certain countries to come to Germany and apply for a visa there. A separate paragraph allows people to convert a tourist visa to a residence permit if the reason for the residence permit appeared while they were visiting. For example, going through rounds of interviews, and being offered the job while you're visiting Germany as a tourist. There are so many other paths, but navigating those options can be confusing.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  The problem is, that only works if your Aufenthaltsbehörde isn't swamped in case load. Unfortunately, the ones in cities where tech workers are wanted are swamped and often times you need a lawyer to file an Untätigkeitsklage (inactivity lawsuit) or threaten to do so to get them to respond. The Ausländerbehörden are massively understaffed (well below 50% of what would be needed), and work distribution usually is that anything attached with a court deadline has absolute priority, anything from a lawyer comes next, and whatever comes from a generic person or company just gets shifted to "Ablage P" (the paper recycling bin).
  - nicbou 1y ago
    You're right, but I have to say that the Berlin immigration office has greatly improved in the last two years. The wait times are getting a bit more acceptable. The biggest challenge now is housing those newcomers. The housing situation is turning people away.

ohyoutravel 1y ago

Borders of countries are fundamentally human constructs. There is no morality associated with crossing them legally or illegally. This is the difference between a law declaring something illegal because they think it is better for society (a parking ticket, say) and a law created that require moral turpitude (murder, say).

layer8 1y ago
Morality is a human construct as well, so I don’t quite get your point.
DaSHacka 1y ago
A country with no borders is not a country at all, merely an "economic zone" that can be leached until dry.
- mock-possum 1y ago
  What is the mechanism whereby an economic zone is leached, such that borders would protect it?
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
    I don't have hard data yet but I'm pretty sure some cities have suburbs outside them, connected via road, that rich people use as tax havens so they can live near a city without being subject to the laws and taxation of the city
    - array_key_first 1y ago
      Right but if you go into a country then you're in the country, not in the outskirts. You still pay taxes (generally...), and, in many countries, don't get any social services. If anything, many formally-colonial countries are leeching off their illegal immigrants, not the other way around.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      Countries are generally big and with cities on both sides of a border so that doesn't seem like it would be a big worry for them.
doctorpangloss 1y ago
Ha ha, “no morality,” when it’s people you like. You’re saying pogroms aren’t immoral? That’s a “legal” border crossing!

nicbou 1y ago

> I've met many people on my travels who went to Europe on tourist visas, got work and then got to stay legally later. That's completely legal for some nationalities, at least in Germany. §41 AufenthV allows people from certain countries to come to Germany and apply for a visa there. A separate paragraph allows people to convert a tourist visa to a residence permit if the reason for the residence permit appeared while they were visiting. For example, going through rounds of interviews, and being offered the job while you're visiting Germany as a tourist. There are so many other paths, but navigating those options can be confusing.

mschuster91 1y ago
The problem is, that only works if your Aufenthaltsbehörde isn't swamped in case load. Unfortunately, the ones in cities where tech workers are wanted are swamped and often times you need a lawyer to file an Untätigkeitsklage (inactivity lawsuit) or threaten to do so to get them to respond. The Ausländerbehörden are massively understaffed (well below 50% of what would be needed), and work distribution usually is that anything attached with a court deadline has absolute priority, anything from a lawyer comes next, and whatever comes from a generic person or company just gets shifted to "Ablage P" (the paper recycling bin).
- nicbou 1y ago
  You're right, but I have to say that the Berlin immigration office has greatly improved in the last two years. The wait times are getting a bit more acceptable. The biggest challenge now is housing those newcomers. The housing situation is turning people away.