4 ms·

> then I do so and start quietly applying In this job market? And where pretty much every company seems to be following the top-down push for AI-driven "veloci

> then I do so and start quietly applying In this job market? And where pretty much every company seems to be following the top-down push for AI-driven "velocity"?

nextlevelwizard 1y ago
When you are applying from a job you are more desirable and you aren't desperate so you can take your pick. If your current job is bad then you can't really lose much. Otherwise you need to be the person at the company who cuts through the bullshit and saves it from when the VibeCodeTechDebt is popping the industry.
viccis 1y ago
That's why I would start applying instead of just quitting. There are plenty of companies that use AI responsibly or not much at all.
- xeonmc 1y ago
  This is why we need a programmer union, so that coders can collectively reject reverse-centaur slopwork, like miners rejecting asbestos mines or workers refusing to fix dangerous machines while it’s running.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Are AI slop reviews threatening to your life?
    - zwnow 1y ago
      AI generated code is threatening the whole tech industry while also threatening to hurt tons of users, because people that have no business in building and deploying apps suddenly feel like they can. That Tea app was a good example for that, endangering thousands of women by leaking private conversations and address data. If AI slop infiltrates projects enterprises are built upon, its likely companies and their customers are metaphorically hurt too, because of a spike in outages etc... (which already happens given AWS got like 7000 outage reports after getting rid of another 14000 employees). Yes AI can be cool, but can we stop being this blind regarding its limitations, usecases, how its actually used, how it actually benefits humanity, and so on? Like give me a valid reason for Sora existing (except for monetizing attentionspans of humans, which I consider highly unethical).
      - immibis 1y ago
        Okay, can you avoid comparing a company going bankrupt because of a bad bet on AI, to a person getting mangled and crushed into a cube inside of an industrial machine?
        zwnow 1y ago
        Where did I compare that? Getting hurt has variations. Your privacy can be hurt, your physique can be hurt, your emotions can be hurt.
      - kanwisher 1y ago
        Funny the app that was made to destroy other peoples lives with anonymous tips that could be fake, hurt the real perpetrators. Almost like it was karma
        zwnow 1y ago
        [flagged]
        bmn__ 11mo ago
        Reply intended to user zwnow who is banned by HN, so I cannot reply directly. You confuse intent with reality. The social software under discussion was abused immediately for the criminal purpose of spreading falsehoods about men, both with malicious intent and wilful negligence, which is particularly egregious because the victims were not made aware of the slander. Even if they wanted to defend themselves, they were prevented from doing so because of the institutionalised sexism, men are banned from participating on grounds of their sex alone. The proof for this is in the leaks. You failed to take this into account and hence got downvoted into oblivion, not for the reason you claim. The other facts you write about are part of a different narrative, they are not directly relevant to kanwisher's proposition. IMO, we should not have any tolerance for platforms that are designed for gossip because of the boy-cries-wolf effect in backlash because it means if a woman is a genuine victim, people will take the priors into account and most will assume she's a liar, too, and this lets the perpetrators off the hook. I do not want to live in such a society. The way out of this is holding women accountable, they should be punished for criminal behaviour with immediate and drastic consequences, and tenfold so for their enablers. The problem would stop overnight.
    - charlieyu1 11mo ago
      Yes, the code is so bad if I let them pass it could put the entire company out of business
  - eru 1y ago
    As long as you don't pretend to talk for people who don't want to be talked for, go ahead and knock yourself out.
  - rTX5CMRXIfFG 1y ago
    No. Programmer unions are going to shrink the economy and make the current job market a permanent trajectory instead of a cyclical one. I can’t think of why the idea of unions is gaining popularity in some programmer circles, other than that its advocates simply don’t have economic common sense.
    - gregoryl 11mo ago
      > Programmer unions are going to shrink the economy and make the current job market a permanent trajectory instead of a cyclical one How?
  - SecondHandTofu 1y ago
    More political arguments about the other effects of unions aside - I've never heard a good answer for why unions are good for workers in professions with wide ranges of skill and impact, such as lots of types of knowledge work. Do you have an answer for that? Roles that are more fungible, train drivers, factory workers, I can see the case from the worker's perspective, even if I think there are externalities. But I can't even see it from a worker's perspective in roles such as software or sales, why would anyone good want to work in an environment where much worse workers are protected, compensation is more levelised etc? I'm assuming this will boil down to some unspoken values differences but still thought I'd ask.
    - wongarsu 1y ago
      In theory you could limit the scope of the union to not include things like negotiating salary or defending workers from being fired. I don't think anything prevents you from having a union that just fights for basic rights like good chairs, not having to review AI slop and not being exposed to asbestos. Of course keeping the union narrowly focused is an issue. Unions are a democracy after all
      - eru 11mo ago
        > Of course keeping the union narrowly focused is an issue. Unions are a democracy after all Yep, and I don't want my neighbours to vote on the colour of my underwear or what I have for breakfast either. They can mind their business, and I can mind mine.
    - sfn42 11mo ago
      > why would anyone good want to work in an environment where much worse workers are protected The "much worse workers" are the majority. That's why you see everyone complaining about technical interviews and such - those of us who crush the interviews and get the jobs don't mind.
      - yunwal 11mo ago
        I’m quite good at technical interviews, and I still think they’re not a good way to find the best person for the job in 95% of places they’re used
zwnow 1y ago
The market only sucks for devs that lack experience or have a skillset thats oversaturated. If you only know React and Python I'm sorry, but there are like 20 million devs just like you so the one thats willing to work for the smallest coin is going to win.

> then I do so and start quietly applying In this job market? And where pretty much every company seems to be following the top-down push for AI-driven "velocity"?

nextlevelwizard 1y ago

When you are applying from a job you are more desirable and you aren't desperate so you can take your pick. If your current job is bad then you can't really lose much. Otherwise you need to be the person at the company who cuts through the bullshit and saves it from when the VibeCodeTechDebt is popping the industry.

viccis 1y ago

That's why I would start applying instead of just quitting. There are plenty of companies that use AI responsibly or not much at all.

xeonmc 1y ago
This is why we need a programmer union, so that coders can collectively reject reverse-centaur slopwork, like miners rejecting asbestos mines or workers refusing to fix dangerous machines while it’s running.
- immibis 1y ago
  Are AI slop reviews threatening to your life?
  - zwnow 1y ago
    AI generated code is threatening the whole tech industry while also threatening to hurt tons of users, because people that have no business in building and deploying apps suddenly feel like they can. That Tea app was a good example for that, endangering thousands of women by leaking private conversations and address data. If AI slop infiltrates projects enterprises are built upon, its likely companies and their customers are metaphorically hurt too, because of a spike in outages etc... (which already happens given AWS got like 7000 outage reports after getting rid of another 14000 employees). Yes AI can be cool, but can we stop being this blind regarding its limitations, usecases, how its actually used, how it actually benefits humanity, and so on? Like give me a valid reason for Sora existing (except for monetizing attentionspans of humans, which I consider highly unethical).
    - immibis 1y ago
      Okay, can you avoid comparing a company going bankrupt because of a bad bet on AI, to a person getting mangled and crushed into a cube inside of an industrial machine?
      - zwnow 1y ago
        Where did I compare that? Getting hurt has variations. Your privacy can be hurt, your physique can be hurt, your emotions can be hurt.
    - kanwisher 1y ago
      Funny the app that was made to destroy other peoples lives with anonymous tips that could be fake, hurt the real perpetrators. Almost like it was karma
      - zwnow 1y ago
        [flagged]
      - bmn__ 11mo ago
        Reply intended to user zwnow who is banned by HN, so I cannot reply directly. You confuse intent with reality. The social software under discussion was abused immediately for the criminal purpose of spreading falsehoods about men, both with malicious intent and wilful negligence, which is particularly egregious because the victims were not made aware of the slander. Even if they wanted to defend themselves, they were prevented from doing so because of the institutionalised sexism, men are banned from participating on grounds of their sex alone. The proof for this is in the leaks. You failed to take this into account and hence got downvoted into oblivion, not for the reason you claim. The other facts you write about are part of a different narrative, they are not directly relevant to kanwisher's proposition. IMO, we should not have any tolerance for platforms that are designed for gossip because of the boy-cries-wolf effect in backlash because it means if a woman is a genuine victim, people will take the priors into account and most will assume she's a liar, too, and this lets the perpetrators off the hook. I do not want to live in such a society. The way out of this is holding women accountable, they should be punished for criminal behaviour with immediate and drastic consequences, and tenfold so for their enablers. The problem would stop overnight.
  - charlieyu1 11mo ago
    Yes, the code is so bad if I let them pass it could put the entire company out of business
- eru 1y ago
  As long as you don't pretend to talk for people who don't want to be talked for, go ahead and knock yourself out.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 1y ago
  No. Programmer unions are going to shrink the economy and make the current job market a permanent trajectory instead of a cyclical one. I can’t think of why the idea of unions is gaining popularity in some programmer circles, other than that its advocates simply don’t have economic common sense.
  - gregoryl 11mo ago
    > Programmer unions are going to shrink the economy and make the current job market a permanent trajectory instead of a cyclical one How?
- SecondHandTofu 1y ago
  More political arguments about the other effects of unions aside - I've never heard a good answer for why unions are good for workers in professions with wide ranges of skill and impact, such as lots of types of knowledge work. Do you have an answer for that? Roles that are more fungible, train drivers, factory workers, I can see the case from the worker's perspective, even if I think there are externalities. But I can't even see it from a worker's perspective in roles such as software or sales, why would anyone good want to work in an environment where much worse workers are protected, compensation is more levelised etc? I'm assuming this will boil down to some unspoken values differences but still thought I'd ask.
  - wongarsu 1y ago
    In theory you could limit the scope of the union to not include things like negotiating salary or defending workers from being fired. I don't think anything prevents you from having a union that just fights for basic rights like good chairs, not having to review AI slop and not being exposed to asbestos. Of course keeping the union narrowly focused is an issue. Unions are a democracy after all
    - eru 11mo ago
      > Of course keeping the union narrowly focused is an issue. Unions are a democracy after all Yep, and I don't want my neighbours to vote on the colour of my underwear or what I have for breakfast either. They can mind their business, and I can mind mine.
  - sfn42 11mo ago
    > why would anyone good want to work in an environment where much worse workers are protected The "much worse workers" are the majority. That's why you see everyone complaining about technical interviews and such - those of us who crush the interviews and get the jobs don't mind.
    - yunwal 11mo ago
      I’m quite good at technical interviews, and I still think they’re not a good way to find the best person for the job in 95% of places they’re used

zwnow 1y ago

The market only sucks for devs that lack experience or have a skillset thats oversaturated. If you only know React and Python I'm sorry, but there are like 20 million devs just like you so the one thats willing to work for the smallest coin is going to win.