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Just had our minisplit develop a leak after 7 years. The shop recommended replacing it, as just the refrigerant is half the price of a new one if most has to b

Just had our minisplit develop a leak after 7 years. The shop recommended replacing it, as just the refrigerant is half the price of a new one if most has to be replaced, due to environmental taxes. Basically a repair is guaranteed to be at least 50% of new price of NOK 23k ($2.3k) installed and can quickly approach 80+% if the guy has to spend time on it. That made me wonder how on earth they make money on selling these things. And how effective that tax was, given it's pushing us to replace a unit that's probably fine for many more years with just a bit of TLC. edit: fixed pricing brain fart

tass 1y ago
23k seems like a lot, especially so if the leak is somewhere other than a hidden part of the line. Equipment cost is likely only a couple of k, and labour to replace without running new lines is maybe a few hours. Please get a second opinion, especially if you can find a non-shop to give you one.
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  > 23k seems like a lot, That is because it's wrong. Sorry, just woke up. I'm in Norway, and it's 23k NOK, or $2300. The shop said filling my system back up with refrigerant if it was empty would be around $1.3k, and based on what I've heard I don't think that's off by much.
  - tass 1y ago
    Oh I don’t know how I missed that unless you made an edit, but I also just woke up :) This price makes more sense. 23k didn’t sound too far off what an American installer would try charge for a new system in a high cost of living area, so this wasn’t too unbelievable.
    - magicalhippo 1y ago
      Yeah edited it, should have clarified. > 23k didn’t sound too far off what an American installer would try charge for a new system in a high cost of living area I've heard these insane prices. I think 2.3k is pricey enough, you can get cheaper units here but SO wants the pretty indoor unit so pretty indoor unit she gets.
- WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
  > 23k seems like a lot, especially so if the leak is somewhere other than a hidden part of the line. I am inclined to agree. The rear 2½T unit in our rental blew a line last year. Two companies quoted my landlord $10k for a new 2½T condenser and air handler (1 was another renter of his). Even that seemed high to me but I could be out of date In the end, I had a friend come out and look it over. Leak was near the compressor and he charged well under $1k for the fix, mostly for refrigerant.
esperent 1y ago
Here in Vietnam nearly all ACs are these minisplit type. It costs about 500,000VND ($19) to get one serviced, including replacement coolant. It's cheap enough that I get it done at least once or twice a year for all units (the coolant doesn't always need replacing but I get it cleaned and serviced). I know the US and Vietnamese economies are very different, but something doesn't add up there.
- ryao 1y ago
  Minisplit AC units are not very popular in the US. The US mainly uses either central air conditioning units or all in one AC units that are designed to be installed in a window. The window units are cheap, but inefficient. The central units are more efficient, but very expensive. Minisplit units are more expensive than window units (by probably a factor of 10), but are more efficient than either. I suspect most people in the US do not know that minisplit units are even an option. In my home, I recently had a heat pump unit replace my central A/C with some minisplits that connected to the exterior unit installed in the basement. The entire setup cost as much as it originally cost to install the central A/C, despite parts of the central A/C being reused. Note that in the US, what we call air conditioners only support cooling and not heating. When they support both, we call them heat pumps despite that being the scientific name which applies to the cooling only units too.
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    I don't think it's just "most Americans don't know." When I installed AC in my former Bay Area home, I would have needed multiple mini split units to cover 1200sq ft, with questions about how many you could have on at once to still get the right performance. I went with a single central air unit instead. It also (at the time at least) didn't come with a centralized thermostat, which meant managing each room individually (that would've been fine with me, personally, but it's a drawback for lots of people). On top of that, many (if not most) mini split units are also somewhat aesthetically displeasing. In my new home (on a different continent), I have mini splits. I'm somewhat satisfied with them, at best. I'd still prefer central air but it's not a thing for residential homes here.
matwood 1y ago
For a non-obvious leak it's pretty normal to recommend a new system at that age. The reason is that a tech's time is expensive, and finding a leak can take a lot of time. Then once it's found, if the leak is in the exchange you're looking at a fairly large replacement part cost. At least in the US, refrigerant costs have been high because of a shortage, not taxes. https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/us-ac-companies-move-to-ease-r454b-shortage/ https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/us-ac-companies-move-...
- ryao 1y ago
  If you need R410A refrigerant, the high costs are due to government regulations causing the shortage. I very much hope that the heat pump I had installed 2 years ago does not leak. Theoretically, if the leak occurs under warranty, it should be covered. The central A/C unit I replaced with the heat pump had developed a leak right before the warranty expired, which resulted in a costly repair being covered. Unfortunately, we paid another company to refill it before learning that it would be covered as part of the warranty repair by the company that installed it. It then developed a second leak several years later, so I had a heat pump installed. Of course, that heat pump uses R410A refrigerant. The leaky A/C unit had been made by Lennox while the new heat pump was made by Fujitsu. I very much hope that Fujitsu engineered its heat pump to last. The heat pump had also replaced an oil heating system that was around 25 years old and still could have been used for many more years. Expecting similar or better longevity out of a heat pump does not seem unreasonable.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  > The reason is that a tech's time is expensive Yeah labor costs also make a lot of repairs uneconomical. There's been talk here about removing the 25% VAT on repairs to make the value proposition a bit better, but doesn't seem to have much traction currently. > At least in the US, refrigerant costs have been high because of a shortage, not taxes. The guy said it was due to taxes, specifically that they had gone up so much in recent years. Seems it's because the tax is tied to CO2 tax[1], which has been going up since they introduced it in 2020. Not sure what refrigerant they use in my minisplit, but even if it's one of the cheaper one the tax is about $90 per kg, so adds up quick. edit: mine uses R-32, so yeah about $90/kg. [1]: https://www.vke.no/artikler/2024/okning-avgift-hfk/ https://www.vke.no/artikler/2024/okning-avgift-hfk/
numpad0 1y ago
> ... on selling these things. Or making those things. I think it could make sense if that $2.3k mostly only accounted for Western labor involved rather than representing entirety of "real" costs. Like - just entirely making up - 1k to ship it from middle of the Pacific to nearby ports to you, 0.5k from the port to location of installation, another 0.5k to install, 0.3k for documents preparations and extra wood screws, 2.3k total. And $25k worth of man-hours in CNY to manufacture, which effect is isolated and contained within their own economic bubble. I can't just believe in the "them subsidization" theory anymore, international prices just don't seem like compensating for anything. It feels like paying for energy costs of delivery systems rather than the product. It just doesn't make sense.
wombatpm 1y ago
New refrigerant rules went into place in January of this year. That alone tipped the scales on my AC compressor repair becoming an AC replacement.

tass 1y ago

23k seems like a lot, especially so if the leak is somewhere other than a hidden part of the line. Equipment cost is likely only a couple of k, and labour to replace without running new lines is maybe a few hours. Please get a second opinion, especially if you can find a non-shop to give you one.

magicalhippo 1y ago
> 23k seems like a lot, That is because it's wrong. Sorry, just woke up. I'm in Norway, and it's 23k NOK, or $2300. The shop said filling my system back up with refrigerant if it was empty would be around $1.3k, and based on what I've heard I don't think that's off by much.
- tass 1y ago
  Oh I don’t know how I missed that unless you made an edit, but I also just woke up :) This price makes more sense. 23k didn’t sound too far off what an American installer would try charge for a new system in a high cost of living area, so this wasn’t too unbelievable.
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    Yeah edited it, should have clarified. > 23k didn’t sound too far off what an American installer would try charge for a new system in a high cost of living area I've heard these insane prices. I think 2.3k is pricey enough, you can get cheaper units here but SO wants the pretty indoor unit so pretty indoor unit she gets.
WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
> 23k seems like a lot, especially so if the leak is somewhere other than a hidden part of the line. I am inclined to agree. The rear 2½T unit in our rental blew a line last year. Two companies quoted my landlord $10k for a new 2½T condenser and air handler (1 was another renter of his). Even that seemed high to me but I could be out of date In the end, I had a friend come out and look it over. Leak was near the compressor and he charged well under $1k for the fix, mostly for refrigerant.

esperent 1y ago

Here in Vietnam nearly all ACs are these minisplit type. It costs about 500,000VND ($19) to get one serviced, including replacement coolant. It's cheap enough that I get it done at least once or twice a year for all units (the coolant doesn't always need replacing but I get it cleaned and serviced). I know the US and Vietnamese economies are very different, but something doesn't add up there.

ryao 1y ago
Minisplit AC units are not very popular in the US. The US mainly uses either central air conditioning units or all in one AC units that are designed to be installed in a window. The window units are cheap, but inefficient. The central units are more efficient, but very expensive. Minisplit units are more expensive than window units (by probably a factor of 10), but are more efficient than either. I suspect most people in the US do not know that minisplit units are even an option. In my home, I recently had a heat pump unit replace my central A/C with some minisplits that connected to the exterior unit installed in the basement. The entire setup cost as much as it originally cost to install the central A/C, despite parts of the central A/C being reused. Note that in the US, what we call air conditioners only support cooling and not heating. When they support both, we call them heat pumps despite that being the scientific name which applies to the cooling only units too.
- rkomorn 1y ago
  I don't think it's just "most Americans don't know." When I installed AC in my former Bay Area home, I would have needed multiple mini split units to cover 1200sq ft, with questions about how many you could have on at once to still get the right performance. I went with a single central air unit instead. It also (at the time at least) didn't come with a centralized thermostat, which meant managing each room individually (that would've been fine with me, personally, but it's a drawback for lots of people). On top of that, many (if not most) mini split units are also somewhat aesthetically displeasing. In my new home (on a different continent), I have mini splits. I'm somewhat satisfied with them, at best. I'd still prefer central air but it's not a thing for residential homes here.

matwood 1y ago

For a non-obvious leak it's pretty normal to recommend a new system at that age. The reason is that a tech's time is expensive, and finding a leak can take a lot of time. Then once it's found, if the leak is in the exchange you're looking at a fairly large replacement part cost. At least in the US, refrigerant costs have been high because of a shortage, not taxes. https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/us-ac-companies-move-to-ease-r454b-shortage/ https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/us-ac-companies-move-...

ryao 1y ago
If you need R410A refrigerant, the high costs are due to government regulations causing the shortage. I very much hope that the heat pump I had installed 2 years ago does not leak. Theoretically, if the leak occurs under warranty, it should be covered. The central A/C unit I replaced with the heat pump had developed a leak right before the warranty expired, which resulted in a costly repair being covered. Unfortunately, we paid another company to refill it before learning that it would be covered as part of the warranty repair by the company that installed it. It then developed a second leak several years later, so I had a heat pump installed. Of course, that heat pump uses R410A refrigerant. The leaky A/C unit had been made by Lennox while the new heat pump was made by Fujitsu. I very much hope that Fujitsu engineered its heat pump to last. The heat pump had also replaced an oil heating system that was around 25 years old and still could have been used for many more years. Expecting similar or better longevity out of a heat pump does not seem unreasonable.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
magicalhippo 1y ago
> The reason is that a tech's time is expensive Yeah labor costs also make a lot of repairs uneconomical. There's been talk here about removing the 25% VAT on repairs to make the value proposition a bit better, but doesn't seem to have much traction currently. > At least in the US, refrigerant costs have been high because of a shortage, not taxes. The guy said it was due to taxes, specifically that they had gone up so much in recent years. Seems it's because the tax is tied to CO2 tax[1], which has been going up since they introduced it in 2020. Not sure what refrigerant they use in my minisplit, but even if it's one of the cheaper one the tax is about $90 per kg, so adds up quick. edit: mine uses R-32, so yeah about $90/kg. [1]: https://www.vke.no/artikler/2024/okning-avgift-hfk/ https://www.vke.no/artikler/2024/okning-avgift-hfk/

numpad0 1y ago

> ... on selling these things. Or making those things. I think it could make sense if that $2.3k mostly only accounted for Western labor involved rather than representing entirety of "real" costs. Like - just entirely making up - 1k to ship it from middle of the Pacific to nearby ports to you, 0.5k from the port to location of installation, another 0.5k to install, 0.3k for documents preparations and extra wood screws, 2.3k total. And $25k worth of man-hours in CNY to manufacture, which effect is isolated and contained within their own economic bubble. I can't just believe in the "them subsidization" theory anymore, international prices just don't seem like compensating for anything. It feels like paying for energy costs of delivery systems rather than the product. It just doesn't make sense.

wombatpm 1y ago

New refrigerant rules went into place in January of this year. That alone tipped the scales on my AC compressor repair becoming an AC replacement.