4 ms·

DDR4 memory: Twice the speed, less power

65 points by Mitt 14y ago

twodayslate 14y ago
Not until 2014 :(
programminggeek 14y ago
Wasn't HP working on memresistors that were going to be way faster than traditional memory, but they've pushed it back a year or two so their partners could adjust their biz models? Were they waiting for DDR4 maybe?
- Tuna-Fish 14y ago
  Memristors are aiming for flash initially, not DRAM. They probably don't have the write endurance to deal with DRAM-like loads. Also, DDR4 is an interface spec that has very little to do with the actual RAM.
  - bloaf 14y ago
    Yep, it was my understanding that they would use memristors in flash first, then SSDs, then RAM over the course of a few years.
- mercuryrising 14y ago
  Hopefully. Memristors are weird. Depending on the material you use to make it, the mechanisms behind the memristance change. For instance, in some materials you create and destroy nano-wires at the interface of metal-insulator that allow electrons to tunnel through the thin insulator. With other materials (such as TiO2 memristors), the materials undergo phase transitions that change from conducting to non-conducting depending on the applied voltage. There's probably others that we haven't found yet. The TaO2 memristors are FAST. They can last a really long time as well - people have recorded 10^10 open loop write cycles for memristors. Most things sound too good to be true, but memristors scale incredibly well (they are created in a cross bar pattern, like core memory back in the day) so you can make them extremely dense. They also hold their state when the power goes out, they are quick, and they last for a long time. I can see a convergence of the memory we use in computers, as once they catch on, they will bring inexpensive, plentiful, fast memory.
ajross 14y ago
It's important to note that "twice the speed" refers to transfer speed, not latency or cycle time. Modern DRAM technology has capped out at a cycle time of about 30MHz, and isn't going to change much in the future. That time is limited by the time required to precharge the bit lines to a voltage accurate enough to measure the stored values against. These are big wires going across the whole chip by definition, so they don't see improvements due to process shrinkage. On a modern DDR3-1600 part, there are 1.6G potential transfers per second, but a full random access cycle requires about 60 of these (10-10-10-30 timings are typical). The time taken to issue the command is 2 clocks, and the time taken to read the data is 4. The rest is just idle waiting. So even "infinitely clocked" dram would be only about 10% faster in the worst case.
- codex 14y ago
  Is this 30Mhz value per chip, or per memory channel? Would it be possible to increase total random access throughput by adding more chips to a channel and pipelining more requests?
  - Tuna-Fish 14y ago
    It's per memory cell. And that's what all modern memory does. Ignoring chop (afaik, no modern widely used memory controller makes use of it), the smallest request you can make from a 64-bit DDR3 stick is 64 bytes. All those 512 bits are accessed in parallel, and when done, sent over the memory bus over 8 bus transfers. While the controller is waiting for those bits to become available, you can issue commands to different banks within the same chip. (And in fact must do so to get anywhere close to the nominal bandwidth). Modern memory controllers interleave requests both between banks of the same chip and between different chips on the same channel.
  - ajross 14y ago
    It's per "bank". Chips often are partitioned into multiple banks, each with its own row/column array. This gives some parallelism, because an access to one bank won't invalidate the already-loaded row in the others (reads of bits in the same row as the previous one are faster because they are stored/cached in digital logic -- this is why sequential access to DRAM is faster than random acccess). Obviously the width of the DRAM bus itself is a parallelism design: fundamentally DRAM is always "one bit wide", you get wider busses by using multiple devices and feeding them the same commands. And you can get even more parallelism by using more than one DRAM channel. Intel Desktop CPUs have 2x 64 bit channels, the LGA2011 server parts have 4x64, Apple's new A6 made news this week by moving to a 2x32 bit design. But note that those are all bandwidth improvements. They don't do anything to the time it takes to get a bit out of an idle DRAM part. DRAM latency is largely fixed in the modern world, until we find a different way of storing bits.
Scene_Cast2 14y ago
If I recall correctly, memory manufacturers have ready to manufacture / release DDR4 for some time now. The CPU companies are the ones that aren't making the move until 2014.
- mtgx 14y ago
  I wonder if it has anything to do with Intel wanting to integrate DRAM in their SoC's in the future. http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/07/intel-to-do-away-with-dram-in-pcs/ http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/07/intel-to-do-away-with-dra...
- bathat 14y ago
  Not being familiar with the DDR4 spec, I wonder how much performance benefit DDR4 brings without increasing the size of the processor's cache line? As others have mentioned, the latency for random access is quite high, and DDR effectively just multiplies the bus width. For DMA and filling cache lines DDRx is a win because you usually want to grab all those bits anyway (although in those cases, the addresses tend to be contiguous anyway, so it's not as slow as "random"). But if your cache grabs bunches of 512 bits, having a memory that is only faster when transferring a contiguous group of 1024 bits isn't an obvious speedup.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rogerbinns 14y ago
For the folks that care about power consumption, there is already DDR3L and DDR3U today that use lower voltages than standard DDR3. Intel's Ivy Bridge chipsets can support DDR3 and DDR3L and I'm using the latter in my laptop.
sitkack 14y ago
This will be a huge boon to virtualization and machines with high multitasking workloads (refilling the caches quickly). Cache locality and streaming reads and writes are still as important as ever.

65 points by Mitt 14y ago

Not until 2014 :(

Wasn't HP working on memresistors that were going to be way faster than traditional memory, but they've pushed it back a year or two so their partners could adjust their biz models? Were they waiting for DDR4 maybe?

Tuna-Fish 14y ago
Memristors are aiming for flash initially, not DRAM. They probably don't have the write endurance to deal with DRAM-like loads. Also, DDR4 is an interface spec that has very little to do with the actual RAM.
- bloaf 14y ago
  Yep, it was my understanding that they would use memristors in flash first, then SSDs, then RAM over the course of a few years.
mercuryrising 14y ago
Hopefully. Memristors are weird. Depending on the material you use to make it, the mechanisms behind the memristance change. For instance, in some materials you create and destroy nano-wires at the interface of metal-insulator that allow electrons to tunnel through the thin insulator. With other materials (such as TiO2 memristors), the materials undergo phase transitions that change from conducting to non-conducting depending on the applied voltage. There's probably others that we haven't found yet. The TaO2 memristors are FAST. They can last a really long time as well - people have recorded 10^10 open loop write cycles for memristors. Most things sound too good to be true, but memristors scale incredibly well (they are created in a cross bar pattern, like core memory back in the day) so you can make them extremely dense. They also hold their state when the power goes out, they are quick, and they last for a long time. I can see a convergence of the memory we use in computers, as once they catch on, they will bring inexpensive, plentiful, fast memory.

ajross 14y ago

It's important to note that "twice the speed" refers to transfer speed, not latency or cycle time. Modern DRAM technology has capped out at a cycle time of about 30MHz, and isn't going to change much in the future. That time is limited by the time required to precharge the bit lines to a voltage accurate enough to measure the stored values against. These are big wires going across the whole chip by definition, so they don't see improvements due to process shrinkage. On a modern DDR3-1600 part, there are 1.6G potential transfers per second, but a full random access cycle requires about 60 of these (10-10-10-30 timings are typical). The time taken to issue the command is 2 clocks, and the time taken to read the data is 4. The rest is just idle waiting. So even "infinitely clocked" dram would be only about 10% faster in the worst case.

codex 14y ago
Is this 30Mhz value per chip, or per memory channel? Would it be possible to increase total random access throughput by adding more chips to a channel and pipelining more requests?
- Tuna-Fish 14y ago
  It's per memory cell. And that's what all modern memory does. Ignoring chop (afaik, no modern widely used memory controller makes use of it), the smallest request you can make from a 64-bit DDR3 stick is 64 bytes. All those 512 bits are accessed in parallel, and when done, sent over the memory bus over 8 bus transfers. While the controller is waiting for those bits to become available, you can issue commands to different banks within the same chip. (And in fact must do so to get anywhere close to the nominal bandwidth). Modern memory controllers interleave requests both between banks of the same chip and between different chips on the same channel.
- ajross 14y ago
  It's per "bank". Chips often are partitioned into multiple banks, each with its own row/column array. This gives some parallelism, because an access to one bank won't invalidate the already-loaded row in the others (reads of bits in the same row as the previous one are faster because they are stored/cached in digital logic -- this is why sequential access to DRAM is faster than random acccess). Obviously the width of the DRAM bus itself is a parallelism design: fundamentally DRAM is always "one bit wide", you get wider busses by using multiple devices and feeding them the same commands. And you can get even more parallelism by using more than one DRAM channel. Intel Desktop CPUs have 2x 64 bit channels, the LGA2011 server parts have 4x64, Apple's new A6 made news this week by moving to a 2x32 bit design. But note that those are all bandwidth improvements. They don't do anything to the time it takes to get a bit out of an idle DRAM part. DRAM latency is largely fixed in the modern world, until we find a different way of storing bits.

Scene_Cast2 14y ago

If I recall correctly, memory manufacturers have ready to manufacture / release DDR4 for some time now. The CPU companies are the ones that aren't making the move until 2014.

mtgx 14y ago
I wonder if it has anything to do with Intel wanting to integrate DRAM in their SoC's in the future. http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/07/intel-to-do-away-with-dram-in-pcs/ http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/07/intel-to-do-away-with-dra...
bathat 14y ago
Not being familiar with the DDR4 spec, I wonder how much performance benefit DDR4 brings without increasing the size of the processor's cache line? As others have mentioned, the latency for random access is quite high, and DDR effectively just multiplies the bus width. For DMA and filling cache lines DDRx is a win because you usually want to grab all those bits anyway (although in those cases, the addresses tend to be contiguous anyway, so it's not as slow as "random"). But if your cache grabs bunches of 512 bits, having a memory that is only faster when transferring a contiguous group of 1024 bits isn't an obvious speedup.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rogerbinns 14y ago

For the folks that care about power consumption, there is already DDR3L and DDR3U today that use lower voltages than standard DDR3. Intel's Ivy Bridge chipsets can support DDR3 and DDR3L and I'm using the latter in my laptop.

sitkack 14y ago

This will be a huge boon to virtualization and machines with high multitasking workloads (refilling the caches quickly). Cache locality and streaming reads and writes are still as important as ever.