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There’s no area in the world that allows e-bikes with more than 750w motors. A 3kw motor is illegal (cf Surron), unless you are talking about an e-moped requiri

by mperham 11mo ago

There’s no area in the world that allows e-bikes with more than 750w motors. A 3kw motor is illegal (cf Surron), unless you are talking about an e-moped requiring registration.

rconti 11mo ago
Okay, but is it difficult to extrapolate the weight saving benefits of a "legal" power e-bike motor?
MadnessASAP 11mo ago
Listen, your world may not allow you to sell an e-bike with a 1000hp motor on it. But my world allows me to put a 1000hp motor on an e-bike and not tell anyone. Now hold my beer...
- doubled112 11mo ago
  There's a difference. I've noticed that people seem to believe as long as they bought something it should be safe. If you're smart enough to build something, I have to hope you're at least smart enough to realize that there might be consequences. Take your beer back, I'm going for a rip next.
- usrusr 11mo ago
  So that you can flip over in an uncontrolled wheelie at an even lower fraction of the throttle? Even if there was infinite energy throughput (aka power) at zero mass, the main limiter for power per total system mass would still be the battery. In any practical setup, even in super short runtime designs, getting, say, twice the power would not all that dramatic a runtime hit if it was achieved by scaling the same motor technology and paying for the extra mass with a little battery capacity. Unless of course you want to actually use that power increase for any meaningful fraction of the runtime, then you'll obviously drain the battery fast. But a zero-mass power increase would not change that a lot either. Increasing power density (of the motor) just isn't worth much when it does not happen to coincide with an increase in efficiency (and then the battery mass saved for achieving the same range will quite literally outweigh the mass saved by a smaller engine for achieving the same power) The good news is that those striving for power density aren't really at liberty to completely ignore efficiency in the process because cooling is a key issue for them.
  - lazide 11mo ago
    Honestly he’d probably just pretzel the frame underneath him, assuming he gunned it. That’s enough power to potentially do that to a full size car frame.
bhhaskin 11mo ago
There is a big issue in the US currently with people buying electric motorcycles that look like e-bikes.
- eikenberry 11mo ago
  What is the issue? I've seen people on those bikes and they look fun to ride.
  - RajT88 11mo ago
    I see kids blasting around at high speeds without helmets. Kids treat them like fast bikes you do not have to pedal. Wiping out on a bike at 13mph is a very different proposition to wiping out on a bike at higher speeds. I saw just a couple nights ago some kid doing what appeared to be about 40mph on an eBike. Wind in his hair, not pedaling, just blasting it. I am sure new regulations will come to speed limit them, but at the cost of dead and disabled young people. ETA: I went to go look up laws requiring speed limiters on bikes, and the top hit was about how you can disable them: https://goebikelife.com/how-to-remove-ebike-speed-limiter/ https://goebikelife.com/how-to-remove-ebike-speed-limiter/ Article states typical eBike speed limiters are 20-28mph. That is the kind of sustained speed Olympic cyclists can maintain for some period of time, and much faster than kid's toys need to be capable of. And these are the mandated limiters!
    - bhhaskin 11mo ago
      And here is the problem. They are already supposed to be speed limited if it's an e-bike. It's easy to tell the difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle, but the difference between an e-bike and electric motorcycle is far more subtle. And most electric motorcycles lie and market themselves as e-bikes.
      - RajT88 11mo ago
        > And most electric motorcycles lie and market themselves as e-bikes. Because they have pedals which nobody uses. In theory, it's pedal assist, but kids aren't really pedaling eBikes, they are using them like electric motorcycles. You might think: Hey, how can you tell the difference between somebody using an eBike with pedal assist if so many of them look just like regular bikes? I don't really see young people pedaling bikes at all of any kind. It's adults who don't have cars, or adults who are exercising pedaling bikes.
carlosjobim 11mo ago
He said motorcycle. That's a market of hundreds of millions to one billion customers.
SR2Z 11mo ago
They are not allowed, but still commonly owned and used. The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. We need a new category for light motorcycles. The real problem, IMO, is that the law is generally not deferential enough to cyclists and already forces them off sidewalks, onto the street, and to follow traffic laws designed for cars. There's not much else to take away, and the rules right now are unreasonable enough that cyclists always break them. I think what I would like to see are explicit requirements for insurance and licensing for powerful e-bikes, but made significantly cheaper so that people will actually bother. Requiring helmets for the insurance would also make it much more straightforward. We can require them to take the street or a dedicated bike lane and fully mandate that they have to be walked on sidewalks.
- bootlooped 11mo ago
  > The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. I'm not so sure about that. I don't want a 6000kw Sur Ron riding in the bike lane with me. The whole point of the bike lane was to make a safe space for riding a bicycle. I want the bike lanes to be safe enough for children to ride their bikes in, and having something that powerful in it is not conducive to that goal. They are by and large too fast and too unlike a bicycle for bike lanes. Having things that powerful there is going to dissuade a lot of potential (non electric) cyclists. My girlfriend already gets too freaked out by how fast some of the legal e-bikes in the bike lane go. Certainly they shouldn't be on the sidewalk. But what does that leave? Just the road. If that's the case they probably need to just adhere to whatever standards the state has for scooters or mopeds. Which probably means some kind of license, maybe registration, and possibly insurance. But that type of e-bike manufacturer doesn't want to make a light electric scooter that's road legal, they want to make a thing that skirts regulations by being "for off road use only". And the buyers by and large don't want to deal with license and registration, and certainly not insurance. Just because people are doing an illegal thing a lot doesn't mean that the law needs to find a way to make it legal.
beefnugs 11mo ago
Oh nooo i have to put a sticker on it, and only allow my control to go to some arbitrary value when the cops are watching

by mperham 11mo ago

There’s no area in the world that allows e-bikes with more than 750w motors. A 3kw motor is illegal (cf Surron), unless you are talking about an e-moped requiring registration.

rconti 11mo ago

Okay, but is it difficult to extrapolate the weight saving benefits of a "legal" power e-bike motor?

MadnessASAP 11mo ago

Listen, your world may not allow you to sell an e-bike with a 1000hp motor on it. But my world allows me to put a 1000hp motor on an e-bike and not tell anyone. Now hold my beer...

doubled112 11mo ago
There's a difference. I've noticed that people seem to believe as long as they bought something it should be safe. If you're smart enough to build something, I have to hope you're at least smart enough to realize that there might be consequences. Take your beer back, I'm going for a rip next.
usrusr 11mo ago
So that you can flip over in an uncontrolled wheelie at an even lower fraction of the throttle? Even if there was infinite energy throughput (aka power) at zero mass, the main limiter for power per total system mass would still be the battery. In any practical setup, even in super short runtime designs, getting, say, twice the power would not all that dramatic a runtime hit if it was achieved by scaling the same motor technology and paying for the extra mass with a little battery capacity. Unless of course you want to actually use that power increase for any meaningful fraction of the runtime, then you'll obviously drain the battery fast. But a zero-mass power increase would not change that a lot either. Increasing power density (of the motor) just isn't worth much when it does not happen to coincide with an increase in efficiency (and then the battery mass saved for achieving the same range will quite literally outweigh the mass saved by a smaller engine for achieving the same power) The good news is that those striving for power density aren't really at liberty to completely ignore efficiency in the process because cooling is a key issue for them.
- lazide 11mo ago
  Honestly he’d probably just pretzel the frame underneath him, assuming he gunned it. That’s enough power to potentially do that to a full size car frame.

bhhaskin 11mo ago

There is a big issue in the US currently with people buying electric motorcycles that look like e-bikes.

eikenberry 11mo ago
What is the issue? I've seen people on those bikes and they look fun to ride.
- RajT88 11mo ago
  I see kids blasting around at high speeds without helmets. Kids treat them like fast bikes you do not have to pedal. Wiping out on a bike at 13mph is a very different proposition to wiping out on a bike at higher speeds. I saw just a couple nights ago some kid doing what appeared to be about 40mph on an eBike. Wind in his hair, not pedaling, just blasting it. I am sure new regulations will come to speed limit them, but at the cost of dead and disabled young people. ETA: I went to go look up laws requiring speed limiters on bikes, and the top hit was about how you can disable them: https://goebikelife.com/how-to-remove-ebike-speed-limiter/ https://goebikelife.com/how-to-remove-ebike-speed-limiter/ Article states typical eBike speed limiters are 20-28mph. That is the kind of sustained speed Olympic cyclists can maintain for some period of time, and much faster than kid's toys need to be capable of. And these are the mandated limiters!
  - bhhaskin 11mo ago
    And here is the problem. They are already supposed to be speed limited if it's an e-bike. It's easy to tell the difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle, but the difference between an e-bike and electric motorcycle is far more subtle. And most electric motorcycles lie and market themselves as e-bikes.
    - RajT88 11mo ago
      > And most electric motorcycles lie and market themselves as e-bikes. Because they have pedals which nobody uses. In theory, it's pedal assist, but kids aren't really pedaling eBikes, they are using them like electric motorcycles. You might think: Hey, how can you tell the difference between somebody using an eBike with pedal assist if so many of them look just like regular bikes? I don't really see young people pedaling bikes at all of any kind. It's adults who don't have cars, or adults who are exercising pedaling bikes.

carlosjobim 11mo ago

He said motorcycle. That's a market of hundreds of millions to one billion customers.

SR2Z 11mo ago

They are not allowed, but still commonly owned and used. The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. They can't be treated like bicycles because they're too fast but aren't nearly as dangerous as motorcycles. We need a new category for light motorcycles. The real problem, IMO, is that the law is generally not deferential enough to cyclists and already forces them off sidewalks, onto the street, and to follow traffic laws designed for cars. There's not much else to take away, and the rules right now are unreasonable enough that cyclists always break them. I think what I would like to see are explicit requirements for insurance and licensing for powerful e-bikes, but made significantly cheaper so that people will actually bother. Requiring helmets for the insurance would also make it much more straightforward. We can require them to take the street or a dedicated bike lane and fully mandate that they have to be walked on sidewalks.

bootlooped 11mo ago
> The law needs to catch up. There are clearly good reasons for people to want extremely powerful e-bikes and they should be allowed to. I'm not so sure about that. I don't want a 6000kw Sur Ron riding in the bike lane with me. The whole point of the bike lane was to make a safe space for riding a bicycle. I want the bike lanes to be safe enough for children to ride their bikes in, and having something that powerful in it is not conducive to that goal. They are by and large too fast and too unlike a bicycle for bike lanes. Having things that powerful there is going to dissuade a lot of potential (non electric) cyclists. My girlfriend already gets too freaked out by how fast some of the legal e-bikes in the bike lane go. Certainly they shouldn't be on the sidewalk. But what does that leave? Just the road. If that's the case they probably need to just adhere to whatever standards the state has for scooters or mopeds. Which probably means some kind of license, maybe registration, and possibly insurance. But that type of e-bike manufacturer doesn't want to make a light electric scooter that's road legal, they want to make a thing that skirts regulations by being "for off road use only". And the buyers by and large don't want to deal with license and registration, and certainly not insurance. Just because people are doing an illegal thing a lot doesn't mean that the law needs to find a way to make it legal.

beefnugs 11mo ago

Oh nooo i have to put a sticker on it, and only allow my control to go to some arbitrary value when the cops are watching