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Ok, now I understand why this motor is only used in supercars - installing four (or even only two - according to https://www.mercedes-benz.de/passengercars/tech

by rob74 1y ago

Ok, now I understand why this motor is only used in supercars - installing four (or even only two - according to https://www.mercedes-benz.de/passengercars/technology/concept-amg-gt-xx-amg-ea.html#technology-and-innovation https://www.mercedes-benz.de/passengercars/technology/concep..., even the AMG GT-XX has "only" three of them) hub motors with twice the power of a Tesla Model 3 in any other car would be ridiculous. So, the actual challenge is to make this motor even smaller while keeping the same power to weight ratio, so it can also be used for regular cars? That is, if they want to build something for the mass market, not only for an exclusive clientele?

eru 1y ago
Well, Tesla also started with the higher end of the market. That's where people are willing to pay more.
thelastgallon 1y ago
But why limit only to cars? Can this be used for motorcycles, e-bikes, electric buses, train wheels, e-unicycles, electric golf carts, etc? There are probably a range of application where in-wheel makes perfect sense.
- tckk 1y ago
  Donut Labs markets a whole suite of axial flux motors. Sized from scooters through to large trucks. But no public pricing.
  - mlhpdx 1y ago
    And thrusters for boats as well, IIRC.
  - doph 1y ago
    I don't think their motors are axial flux, they're just large and narrow to fit inside wheels. Or at least all the images on their website depict radial flux designs.
- exasperaited 1y ago
  Motorcycles I could imagine. Do e-bikes really need significantly more power than they have? They already run arguably dangerously fast for their application. Is efficiency not the primary target there?
  - varispeed 1y ago
    If engine can be produced cheaply, can it be limited "in software"? It's like saying people shouldn't use Rasberry Pi to blink an LED.
    - JKCalhoun 1y ago
      Yeah, you kind of shouldn't use a Raspberry Pi to blink an LED, though. Great "Hello World" project. But there are so many ways that are cheaper, lighter, smaller and more reliable (and don't require a lengthy boot-up).
      - fragmede 1y ago
        Ah not to worry we can make it a web service and host it on the cloud and of course you wouldn't want to run without a authentication so you'd need that and also a database and what if you want to blink the led securely so you'll need to use a homorphic database which is very computationally expensive so just need a couple of VMs and anyway you should start with https://www.npmjs.com/package/blinking https://www.npmjs.com/package/blinking and go from there.
  - TJSomething 1y ago
    While more power may not make sense, less weight is an easy way to get more efficiency. And if you can keep the same power at a lower weight, that's a win.
  - maeln 1y ago
    The motor to battery weight ratio on e-bike is much more than for cars. Having a lighter motor would improve the efficiency.
  - 1y ago
- binary132 1y ago
  Yeah, my first thought was racing EUC’s, lol….
  - acac10 1y ago
    End User Credentials ? Everyone Uses Cars ? Engineered Universal Conscience? (Since you seem to assume we all share your thoughts & context...)
    - fragmede 1y ago
      Electric UniCycles
    - binary132 1y ago
      E-UniCycles are mentioned in gp. It’s a common initialism for them.
jama211 1y ago
I don’t see anything inside the article that says it’s designed to be inside the wheel. I’m not sure where they got that from.
- tclancy 1y ago
  I get your skepticism and I know nothing about the field, but if the round thing in the press release picture isn’t designed to fit in a wheel, I’m confused. https://yasa.com/news/yasa-smashes-own-unofficial-power-density-world-record-pushing-state-of-the-art-electric-motor-to-staggering-new-59kw-kg-benchmark/ https://yasa.com/news/yasa-smashes-own-unofficial-power-dens...
  - Timshel 1y ago
    Not necessarily, cf: https://lammotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/YASA-400R.jpg https://lammotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/YASA-400R.jp... From https://lammotor.com/yasa-axial-flux-motor/ https://lammotor.com/yasa-axial-flux-motor/ the shape is due to the change to the motor layout: https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-axial-flux-motors-are-a-big-deal-for-evs https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-axial-flux-motors-are-a-bi...
  - jama211 1y ago
    It’s currently designed for the axel for now as far as I’m aware.
- hylaride 1y ago
  I think they misspoke when they said "in" the wheel, but supercars can have a separate motor for each wheel, and the closer they are to the wheel the better the torque as it's not also driving a longer shaft. The smaller the motor, the closer you can get.
  - ErroneousBosh 1y ago
    I guess if you can make the motor and a suitable reduction box lighter than the equivalent bearing and driveshaft combination you could make the suspension arms mechanically simpler. By using motors at each wheel you'd eliminate the need for a differential, saving a good 40-50kg or so. Of course, if you kept the drive shafts and put the motor and reduction box in the middle, you'd be able to use inboard brakes and save a lot of unsprung weight!

by rob74 1y ago

eru 1y ago

Well, Tesla also started with the higher end of the market. That's where people are willing to pay more.

thelastgallon 1y ago

But why limit only to cars? Can this be used for motorcycles, e-bikes, electric buses, train wheels, e-unicycles, electric golf carts, etc? There are probably a range of application where in-wheel makes perfect sense.

tckk 1y ago
Donut Labs markets a whole suite of axial flux motors. Sized from scooters through to large trucks. But no public pricing.
- mlhpdx 1y ago
  And thrusters for boats as well, IIRC.
- doph 1y ago
  I don't think their motors are axial flux, they're just large and narrow to fit inside wheels. Or at least all the images on their website depict radial flux designs.
exasperaited 1y ago
Motorcycles I could imagine. Do e-bikes really need significantly more power than they have? They already run arguably dangerously fast for their application. Is efficiency not the primary target there?
- varispeed 1y ago
  If engine can be produced cheaply, can it be limited "in software"? It's like saying people shouldn't use Rasberry Pi to blink an LED.
  - JKCalhoun 1y ago
    Yeah, you kind of shouldn't use a Raspberry Pi to blink an LED, though. Great "Hello World" project. But there are so many ways that are cheaper, lighter, smaller and more reliable (and don't require a lengthy boot-up).
    - fragmede 1y ago
      Ah not to worry we can make it a web service and host it on the cloud and of course you wouldn't want to run without a authentication so you'd need that and also a database and what if you want to blink the led securely so you'll need to use a homorphic database which is very computationally expensive so just need a couple of VMs and anyway you should start with https://www.npmjs.com/package/blinking https://www.npmjs.com/package/blinking and go from there.
- TJSomething 1y ago
  While more power may not make sense, less weight is an easy way to get more efficiency. And if you can keep the same power at a lower weight, that's a win.
- maeln 1y ago
  The motor to battery weight ratio on e-bike is much more than for cars. Having a lighter motor would improve the efficiency.
- 1y ago
binary132 1y ago
Yeah, my first thought was racing EUC’s, lol….
- acac10 1y ago
  End User Credentials ? Everyone Uses Cars ? Engineered Universal Conscience? (Since you seem to assume we all share your thoughts & context...)
  - fragmede 1y ago
    Electric UniCycles
  - binary132 1y ago
    E-UniCycles are mentioned in gp. It’s a common initialism for them.

jama211 1y ago

I don’t see anything inside the article that says it’s designed to be inside the wheel. I’m not sure where they got that from.

tclancy 1y ago
I get your skepticism and I know nothing about the field, but if the round thing in the press release picture isn’t designed to fit in a wheel, I’m confused. https://yasa.com/news/yasa-smashes-own-unofficial-power-density-world-record-pushing-state-of-the-art-electric-motor-to-staggering-new-59kw-kg-benchmark/ https://yasa.com/news/yasa-smashes-own-unofficial-power-dens...
- Timshel 1y ago
  Not necessarily, cf: https://lammotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/YASA-400R.jpg https://lammotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/YASA-400R.jp... From https://lammotor.com/yasa-axial-flux-motor/ https://lammotor.com/yasa-axial-flux-motor/ the shape is due to the change to the motor layout: https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-axial-flux-motors-are-a-big-deal-for-evs https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-axial-flux-motors-are-a-bi...
- jama211 1y ago
  It’s currently designed for the axel for now as far as I’m aware.
hylaride 1y ago
I think they misspoke when they said "in" the wheel, but supercars can have a separate motor for each wheel, and the closer they are to the wheel the better the torque as it's not also driving a longer shaft. The smaller the motor, the closer you can get.
- ErroneousBosh 1y ago
  I guess if you can make the motor and a suitable reduction box lighter than the equivalent bearing and driveshaft combination you could make the suspension arms mechanically simpler. By using motors at each wheel you'd eliminate the need for a differential, saving a good 40-50kg or so. Of course, if you kept the drive shafts and put the motor and reduction box in the middle, you'd be able to use inboard brakes and save a lot of unsprung weight!