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I’m sure there would be a long line of willing terminal and euthanasia patients who would join a study to record their final moments, I’m surprised this hasn’t

I’m sure there would be a long line of willing terminal and euthanasia patients who would join a study to record their final moments, I’m surprised this hasn’t been done yet.

system2 11mo ago
Must be a wild experience to be hooked up to a bunch of test machines while dying on schedule.
Noumenon72 11mo ago
Ethicists forbid studying anything interesting, leaving us to scrape up data from natural experiments like this patient having a heart attack while already hooked up to an EEG.
- hurrckplgbd 11mo ago
  If we were to abolish ethics in research, would you volunteer to be experimented on without bounds?
- dmacedo 11mo ago
  What a weird way of phrasing that. The whole point of ethics in multiple disciplines is to try and study the principles of humanity in the society we've formed. The areas of philosophy, medicine, justice, and religion are filled with centuries of discussions trying to argue and explain a lot of these matters. But the philosopher of the Internet of today, instead of curiosity of reasoning and arguing for what should change in deontology, and why; sums it up as "ethicists forbid...". I'd really like to understand your views better on what should change and why... Especially when there's plenty of ignoring of ethics in today's world!
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - Noumenon72 11mo ago
    The centuries of ethics discussions have nothing to do with the current institutions that gatekeep science and health with worries and trivia, any more than philosophers of nature are responsible for enviromentalists not letting us build housing. I'm entirely referring to anti-growth bureaucrats. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/31/highlights-from-the-comments-on-my-irb-nightmare/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/31/highlights-from-the-co... Ethicists seem worse for the world than actually unethical people because they bind the majority of good people from progressing, which is what gets us out ahead of our baser natures.
    - beowulfey 11mo ago
      Without ethics, other motivations inevitably end up undermining any good intentions an experimenter may have. Ethics are the "laws" of science that constrain us for the sake of all. Your opinions here reflect a Libertarian bent, I bet.
    - spookie 11mo ago
      I believe that many of the criticisms are either naive or intentionally ignore the importance of ethical oversight in research. The existence of these processes ensures that research is conducted with rigor and thought, which is crucial for maintaining high standards. Some examples suggest they aim at those high standards, and yet fail to see the value on these. These applications allow you to dissect, discuss and reason about every presumption you had coming in, how you handle people's data with care, understand the risks and be prepared for anything. They help both you and your participants. Help you not be an idiot, help you to grow and question your own procedures, and ultimately help you write the damn paper as you have clearly given the matter enough thought at that point. You need to prove yourself, and that is a good thing.
Sam6late 11mo ago
I drowned once in a swimming pool, the clear water tricked me that it was not that deep, 3 meters, then I was 7 and in my memory flashback, I was scared that I ran away from school, it warned me that I would be punished soon for it, it was my final thought until I regained consciousness after getting rescued by Badr the lifeguard there, and the nightmare of fear of punishment returned. It was a very hot summer day in 1968.That flashback was annoying the way it summarized everything in seconds.
matwood 11mo ago
I went out to a loop choke once in BJJ. I wasn’t out long, but I wondered after if that’s what death is like - a flash of thought and that’s it.
lynx97 11mo ago
I am not so sure about this. What would motivate someone to willingly transform their last moments into a medical experiment, with all the risks of being treated in not-so-nice ways? Almost nobody wants to die in a hospital in the first place. And as part of a medical "experiment", no thanks. Science can fuck off as long as they don't have control over their (small, but existing) emotionally detached workers. https://youtu.be/ET71mabgEuM https://youtu.be/ET71mabgEuM
- sokoloff 11mo ago
  Given I’m going to die anyway, I’d readily do it. How else will we increase our understanding of the brain’s experience of dying? And it seems that even beyond the mere understanding, we might be able to prepare for and manage short-term care of imminent organ donors as just one concrete case.
- BriggyDwiggs42 11mo ago
  I don’t think most people have the perspective that you do.
- jbstack 11mo ago
  It doesn't matter that you aren't sure, and it doesn't even matter if most people agreed with you. Around 60 to 70 million people die every year globally, so if even a tiny fraction of these were willing to take part there would be sufficient numbers for a statistically significant study. In any case, the fact that a significant number of people opt for organ or body donation suggests they are willing to allow their deaths to be useful to others in some way.
  - lynx97 11mo ago
    Organ donations pretty much happen after the fact, so that isn't really worth a comparison. There is a reason why Monty Python did their "can we have your liver then" sketch...
    - jbstack 11mo ago
bongodongobob 11mo ago
Lmao. "After you're dead, let us know how it went."
- hydrogen7800 11mo ago
  This reminds me about the movie "Flatliners"[0] in my need-to-watch queue. Maybe this weekend. [0]https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099582/?ref_=fn_t_2 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099582/?ref_=fn_t_2
- jodrellblank 11mo ago
  Put in your reading list The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar by Edgar Allen Poe “I say to you that I am dead!” - https://www.online-literature.com/poe/30/ https://www.online-literature.com/poe/30/
ttcbj 11mo ago
I agree. I read an article a few months ago about how frequent MAID (medical assistance in dying) is in Canada. I am surprised that that has not led to larger scale studies about the dying process. In this particular case, the press release notes "Scientifically, it's very difficult to interpret the data because the brain had suffered bleeding, seizures, swelling...". That does seem to limit how much can be generalized from this one case. A larger study of MAID patients would be more useful. Edit: Maybe the issue is that the MAID itself would alter the brain state. That actually seems pretty plausible.

I’m sure there would be a long line of willing terminal and euthanasia patients who would join a study to record their final moments, I’m surprised this hasn’t been done yet.

system2 11mo ago

Must be a wild experience to be hooked up to a bunch of test machines while dying on schedule.

Noumenon72 11mo ago

Ethicists forbid studying anything interesting, leaving us to scrape up data from natural experiments like this patient having a heart attack while already hooked up to an EEG.

hurrckplgbd 11mo ago
If we were to abolish ethics in research, would you volunteer to be experimented on without bounds?
dmacedo 11mo ago
What a weird way of phrasing that. The whole point of ethics in multiple disciplines is to try and study the principles of humanity in the society we've formed. The areas of philosophy, medicine, justice, and religion are filled with centuries of discussions trying to argue and explain a lot of these matters. But the philosopher of the Internet of today, instead of curiosity of reasoning and arguing for what should change in deontology, and why; sums it up as "ethicists forbid...". I'd really like to understand your views better on what should change and why... Especially when there's plenty of ignoring of ethics in today's world!
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- Noumenon72 11mo ago
  The centuries of ethics discussions have nothing to do with the current institutions that gatekeep science and health with worries and trivia, any more than philosophers of nature are responsible for enviromentalists not letting us build housing. I'm entirely referring to anti-growth bureaucrats. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/31/highlights-from-the-comments-on-my-irb-nightmare/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/31/highlights-from-the-co... Ethicists seem worse for the world than actually unethical people because they bind the majority of good people from progressing, which is what gets us out ahead of our baser natures.
  - beowulfey 11mo ago
    Without ethics, other motivations inevitably end up undermining any good intentions an experimenter may have. Ethics are the "laws" of science that constrain us for the sake of all. Your opinions here reflect a Libertarian bent, I bet.
  - spookie 11mo ago
    I believe that many of the criticisms are either naive or intentionally ignore the importance of ethical oversight in research. The existence of these processes ensures that research is conducted with rigor and thought, which is crucial for maintaining high standards. Some examples suggest they aim at those high standards, and yet fail to see the value on these. These applications allow you to dissect, discuss and reason about every presumption you had coming in, how you handle people's data with care, understand the risks and be prepared for anything. They help both you and your participants. Help you not be an idiot, help you to grow and question your own procedures, and ultimately help you write the damn paper as you have clearly given the matter enough thought at that point. You need to prove yourself, and that is a good thing.

Sam6late 11mo ago

I drowned once in a swimming pool, the clear water tricked me that it was not that deep, 3 meters, then I was 7 and in my memory flashback, I was scared that I ran away from school, it warned me that I would be punished soon for it, it was my final thought until I regained consciousness after getting rescued by Badr the lifeguard there, and the nightmare of fear of punishment returned. It was a very hot summer day in 1968.That flashback was annoying the way it summarized everything in seconds.

matwood 11mo ago

I went out to a loop choke once in BJJ. I wasn’t out long, but I wondered after if that’s what death is like - a flash of thought and that’s it.

lynx97 11mo ago

I am not so sure about this. What would motivate someone to willingly transform their last moments into a medical experiment, with all the risks of being treated in not-so-nice ways? Almost nobody wants to die in a hospital in the first place. And as part of a medical "experiment", no thanks. Science can fuck off as long as they don't have control over their (small, but existing) emotionally detached workers. https://youtu.be/ET71mabgEuM https://youtu.be/ET71mabgEuM

sokoloff 11mo ago
Given I’m going to die anyway, I’d readily do it. How else will we increase our understanding of the brain’s experience of dying? And it seems that even beyond the mere understanding, we might be able to prepare for and manage short-term care of imminent organ donors as just one concrete case.
BriggyDwiggs42 11mo ago
I don’t think most people have the perspective that you do.
jbstack 11mo ago
It doesn't matter that you aren't sure, and it doesn't even matter if most people agreed with you. Around 60 to 70 million people die every year globally, so if even a tiny fraction of these were willing to take part there would be sufficient numbers for a statistically significant study. In any case, the fact that a significant number of people opt for organ or body donation suggests they are willing to allow their deaths to be useful to others in some way.
- lynx97 11mo ago
  Organ donations pretty much happen after the fact, so that isn't really worth a comparison. There is a reason why Monty Python did their "can we have your liver then" sketch...
  - jbstack 11mo ago

bongodongobob 11mo ago

Lmao. "After you're dead, let us know how it went."

hydrogen7800 11mo ago
This reminds me about the movie "Flatliners"[0] in my need-to-watch queue. Maybe this weekend. [0]https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099582/?ref_=fn_t_2 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099582/?ref_=fn_t_2
jodrellblank 11mo ago
Put in your reading list The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar by Edgar Allen Poe “I say to you that I am dead!” - https://www.online-literature.com/poe/30/ https://www.online-literature.com/poe/30/

ttcbj 11mo ago

I agree. I read an article a few months ago about how frequent MAID (medical assistance in dying) is in Canada. I am surprised that that has not led to larger scale studies about the dying process. In this particular case, the press release notes "Scientifically, it's very difficult to interpret the data because the brain had suffered bleeding, seizures, swelling...". That does seem to limit how much can be generalized from this one case. A larger study of MAID patients would be more useful. Edit: Maybe the issue is that the MAID itself would alter the brain state. That actually seems pretty plausible.