6 ms·

I think the issue isn't that you downloaded random hostile software, but that other software you do use has some sort of vulnerability (recent Unity vulnerabili

by tapoxi 1y ago

I think the issue isn't that you downloaded random hostile software, but that other software you do use has some sort of vulnerability (recent Unity vulnerability, browser sandbox escape, etc) and an issue like this would allow for privilege escalation. Wayland doesn't need X11's vulnerability as its only argument, Wayland is a much simpler design that is easier to iterate on because it doesn't assume the client and server are on different machines. The fact that it moves privileged APIs like screen capture behind portals is a bonus.

kelnos 1y ago
So simple and easy to iterate on that Wayland compositors are still not as full-featured as X11 desktop environments after more then a decade, and can't be due to protocols no one is able to agree to implement.
- phkahler 1y ago
  >> Wayland compositors are still not as full-featured as X11 desktop environments It depends what features you care about. X11 doesn't have tear-free video playback, HDR, or as good a security model as Wayland.
  - mikkupikku 1y ago
    Using a compositor fixes screen tearing, no need to use Wayland for that.
    - marmight 1y ago
      Even a compositor is unnecessary to fix screen tearing these days: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/1006 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests...
    - phkahler 1y ago
      >> Using a compositor fixes screen tearing, no need to use Wayland for that. Right, and that abandons the whole X drawing API in favor of passing around client drawn bitmaps. That was one of the big points of Wayland too - X has a whole bunch of stuff that no modern apps use anyway so lets throw it out and build up a better version of the capabilities we need. If we abandon the X drawing API and half an OS included (memory management) and use KMS, all that's left is the features that are security holes.
  - toast0 1y ago
    X11 has options for tear free video playback; it's not in the base protocol, and not all drivers offer it, etc, but it's acheivable. Fundamentally, you need to send the next frame to the server and ask it to switch frames during vblank (+/- notification), on today's systems, this is more of a coordination problem than a technical one; there's plenty of video ram to go around to double/tripple buffer. HDR would fit in the X11 model of many bit depths, however the specifics don't really; afaik, X11 has a maximum bitdepth of 32 for pixel values, which means either limiting to 2-bits of alpha channel or using palettes (I think I saw that indexed colors can be defined with 16-bits per channel). An extension might be possible (with everything that brings), but I think the ship has sailed. I agree that Wayland's security model prevents some undesirable interactions that X11 allows, but it also prevents or makes difficult some desirable interactions, so it's a mixed bag.
    - Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
      > I agree that Wayland's security model prevents some undesirable interactions that X11 allows, but it also prevents or makes difficult some desirable interactions, so it's a mixed bag. That is so true, I wanted to have a typing sound from my pc everytime I typed on wayland and I looked at LITERALLY every single solution and none of them worked... simply because of the security model of wayland (so things like Mechvibes and alternatives don't work generally speaking) On one hand, its a good thing to prevent things like password injection etc. but on the other, really? I got frustrated and I created a lot of github issues on every such project if they said that they are working on wayland and I didn't care if it meant running it as sudo, I just asked them kindly if there was a way or not/ what's the issue here There are still times where I get a lot of notifications simply because someone commented on those issues So naturally a lot of people are/were frustrated about it. Not sure if its a good thing or not, but I 100% agree about this comment of yours Another big issue imo to me feels like ssh, X servers ssh forwarding/vnc just works, Yet I haven't really found ways to do things like VNC on wayland on a server or something as easy (or even possible?) on wayland as compared to x servers, Please let me know if there are apps which do this though, I know about weston but I haven't found ways to work with it/make it work (maybe my skill issue) Are there any solutions to these things though? Fundamentally that mechvibes things requires an app to view the key from every other application and make a sound, Nothing stops it from being a key-logger as well if it had that capability and Wayland was created with a better security model but as you say and I experienced, that security model comes up with its own compromises and I am not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing....
  - jitl 1y ago
    I remember watching tear free HD video in 2011 on a netbook I dug out of the e-waste dumpster in the UC Berkeley CS building basement. Chrome/Openbox/X11. That laptop was literally trash.
- imtringued 1y ago
  Aren't you just doubling down on Wayland being simple? X11 is the kitchen sink here.
- jonway 1y ago
  What missing features? Xforward?
uyzstvqs 1y ago
Wayland is the way to go. The same applies to Flatpak, Pipewire, systemD, etc. I'd say that this is obvious, and doesn't even need to be argued, to 99%+ of those who actually use the Linux desktop. The only opposition to this is a small group of decelerationists with a major, irrational aversion to change.
- mx7zysuj4xew 1y ago
  Everything you listed is bloated, slow, incompatible, unfinished or unstable. My system worked fine 20 years ago on far less capable hardware. Now even with high end workstations systems lag, crash or have strange behavior
  - gf000 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - okanat 1y ago
      We are running systemd with all bells and whistles on Raspberry Pi based 1 GB RAM systems. systemd-networkd, iwd, timers etc. The base usage barely touches 350 MiBs. Our actual application is containerized with systemd thanks to broad set of options increasing system security quite a bit. It works great. You know what's bloated? Replacing all those functions with custom bash scripts or worse system services.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - mx7zysuj4xew 1y ago
        [flagged]
        tomhow 1y ago
        WTF? You can't address people like this on HN, and comments like this are completely unacceptable. You might not owe containers better, but you owe the community better if you want to participate here. Please take a moment to read the guidelines and make an effort to observe them if you want to keep participating here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by tapoxi 1y ago

kelnos 1y ago

So simple and easy to iterate on that Wayland compositors are still not as full-featured as X11 desktop environments after more then a decade, and can't be due to protocols no one is able to agree to implement.

phkahler 1y ago
>> Wayland compositors are still not as full-featured as X11 desktop environments It depends what features you care about. X11 doesn't have tear-free video playback, HDR, or as good a security model as Wayland.
- mikkupikku 1y ago
  Using a compositor fixes screen tearing, no need to use Wayland for that.
  - marmight 1y ago
    Even a compositor is unnecessary to fix screen tearing these days: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/1006 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests...
  - phkahler 1y ago
    >> Using a compositor fixes screen tearing, no need to use Wayland for that. Right, and that abandons the whole X drawing API in favor of passing around client drawn bitmaps. That was one of the big points of Wayland too - X has a whole bunch of stuff that no modern apps use anyway so lets throw it out and build up a better version of the capabilities we need. If we abandon the X drawing API and half an OS included (memory management) and use KMS, all that's left is the features that are security holes.
- toast0 1y ago
  X11 has options for tear free video playback; it's not in the base protocol, and not all drivers offer it, etc, but it's acheivable. Fundamentally, you need to send the next frame to the server and ask it to switch frames during vblank (+/- notification), on today's systems, this is more of a coordination problem than a technical one; there's plenty of video ram to go around to double/tripple buffer. HDR would fit in the X11 model of many bit depths, however the specifics don't really; afaik, X11 has a maximum bitdepth of 32 for pixel values, which means either limiting to 2-bits of alpha channel or using palettes (I think I saw that indexed colors can be defined with 16-bits per channel). An extension might be possible (with everything that brings), but I think the ship has sailed. I agree that Wayland's security model prevents some undesirable interactions that X11 allows, but it also prevents or makes difficult some desirable interactions, so it's a mixed bag.
  - Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
    > I agree that Wayland's security model prevents some undesirable interactions that X11 allows, but it also prevents or makes difficult some desirable interactions, so it's a mixed bag. That is so true, I wanted to have a typing sound from my pc everytime I typed on wayland and I looked at LITERALLY every single solution and none of them worked... simply because of the security model of wayland (so things like Mechvibes and alternatives don't work generally speaking) On one hand, its a good thing to prevent things like password injection etc. but on the other, really? I got frustrated and I created a lot of github issues on every such project if they said that they are working on wayland and I didn't care if it meant running it as sudo, I just asked them kindly if there was a way or not/ what's the issue here There are still times where I get a lot of notifications simply because someone commented on those issues So naturally a lot of people are/were frustrated about it. Not sure if its a good thing or not, but I 100% agree about this comment of yours Another big issue imo to me feels like ssh, X servers ssh forwarding/vnc just works, Yet I haven't really found ways to do things like VNC on wayland on a server or something as easy (or even possible?) on wayland as compared to x servers, Please let me know if there are apps which do this though, I know about weston but I haven't found ways to work with it/make it work (maybe my skill issue) Are there any solutions to these things though? Fundamentally that mechvibes things requires an app to view the key from every other application and make a sound, Nothing stops it from being a key-logger as well if it had that capability and Wayland was created with a better security model but as you say and I experienced, that security model comes up with its own compromises and I am not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing....
- jitl 1y ago
  I remember watching tear free HD video in 2011 on a netbook I dug out of the e-waste dumpster in the UC Berkeley CS building basement. Chrome/Openbox/X11. That laptop was literally trash.
imtringued 1y ago
Aren't you just doubling down on Wayland being simple? X11 is the kitchen sink here.
jonway 1y ago
What missing features? Xforward?

uyzstvqs 1y ago

Wayland is the way to go. The same applies to Flatpak, Pipewire, systemD, etc. I'd say that this is obvious, and doesn't even need to be argued, to 99%+ of those who actually use the Linux desktop. The only opposition to this is a small group of decelerationists with a major, irrational aversion to change.

mx7zysuj4xew 1y ago
Everything you listed is bloated, slow, incompatible, unfinished or unstable. My system worked fine 20 years ago on far less capable hardware. Now even with high end workstations systems lag, crash or have strange behavior
- gf000 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - okanat 1y ago
    We are running systemd with all bells and whistles on Raspberry Pi based 1 GB RAM systems. systemd-networkd, iwd, timers etc. The base usage barely touches 350 MiBs. Our actual application is containerized with systemd thanks to broad set of options increasing system security quite a bit. It works great. You know what's bloated? Replacing all those functions with custom bash scripts or worse system services.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - mx7zysuj4xew 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - tomhow 1y ago
        WTF? You can't address people like this on HN, and comments like this are completely unacceptable. You might not owe containers better, but you owe the community better if you want to participate here. Please take a moment to read the guidelines and make an effort to observe them if you want to keep participating here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html