9 ms·

This is going to be a huge pain. The US has a very fragmented identity system, and "move fast and break things" approaches like this to bring information from a

• e40 1y ago
  LPR?? It is so frustrating to see acronyms without explanation. I looked in the article and searched the web.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • ErroneousBosh 1y ago
    They were born as a network printing system, and became a US citizen later in life. I see you, Wintermute, I see you.
    • ape4 1y ago
      echo face | lpr
    • codedokode 1y ago
      I thought LPR stands for "line printer".
  • citizenkeen 1y ago
    Legal permanent resident
  • griffzhowl 1y ago
    I also searched the web: Laryngopharyngeal Reflux (second result was Lawful Permanent Resident; make of that what you will)
  • williamtrask 1y ago
    tried searching for "noodlesUK" and didn't find anything meaningful
    • r_lee 1y ago
      It's the guy's username
  • frantathefranta 1y ago
    I’m with you on this, especially this year LPR seems to stand for license plate recognition (Flock and others) much more often.
  • 0xxon 1y ago
    Lawful Permanent Resident - https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/lawful-permanent-residents https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/lawful-permanent-res.... It's the official status of green card holders.
  • squigz 1y ago
    Several results on the first page of Google for "lpr acronym" brings up "lawful permanent resident" or similar on my end.
• roxolotl 1y ago
  > This is going to be a huge pain. I struggle a lot when I see comments like this. The point is to be a pain. The point is to empower a national police force to subjugate the populace. The people in charge don’t care if it is “ able to cope with the complex realities of real people.” I don’t understand why people, especially those like you who have complex realities, significantly more complex than me a white man who can trace his lineage to the 1600s in VA, are still giving any benefit of the doubt to these actions.
  • dylan604 1y ago
    > a white man who can trace his lineage to the 1600s in VA and where exactly did those white men in 1600s VA come from? right, you're an immigrant, you should be detained. the 1600s detail is just smoke. the only key thing you said was white. everything after that is just fluff for telling the story.
    • bigbadfeline 1y ago
      > and where exactly did those white men in 1600s VA come from? right, you're an immigrant, Not according to immigration law, which is all that matters for the current discussion. The parent of you comment made a point which you failed to notice. BTW holier-than-thou attitudes and picking fights with friends are largely responsible for where we are. Spotting them is also a good hint for bot detection.
      • dylan604 1y ago
        who's picking a fight? you tell me the sky is red, and i'm going to tell you you're wrong. if you think any of my comments sound like bots, then boy, i don't know
      • tempodox 1y ago
        > Not according to immigration law You overlooked the fact that ICE goons are breaking the law on a regular basis.
  • cassepipe 1y ago
• MSFT_Edging 1y ago
  Someone I know is in a similar situation. She doesn't have the "naturalization documents". She has a passport, a ssn, and became a citizen before she turned 18. Will ICE get it right? or will she be put into a prison for months with poor conditions, with an administration that does not want lawyers involved, with little ability to be found or call out for help? This site likes to do the cowardly take of avoiding politics as long as it's advantageous. I'm going to look into these companies that produce this tech, and memorize the company names. If a resume ever passes my desk with a significant time at any of these companies, it's going to be a "no" from me. That's the small bit of power I hold.
  • curt15 1y ago
    >Will ICE get it right? or will she be put into a prison for months with poor conditions, with an administration that does not want lawyers involved, with little ability to be found or call out for help? Better yet -- whisk her out of the country and then claim that she no longer has standing to sue.
    • MSFT_Edging 1y ago
      Basically any "legal option", aka trying to legally fight illegal actions, requires letting people get hurt, or killed with no recourse while hoping some judge makes a decision and these people actually follow it. You as an individual are defenseless against an incorrect and badly trained officer. This goes for local cops, federal cops, the twitter racists they brought in for ICE, etc. Even if you oppose this with all your heart, if you're semi-intelligent you know the Admin is looking for an excuse to execute greater powers, so any kinetic action against the poorly trained, illegal actions of the state will only cause greater harm. The worst part about this, is if we allow the slow "legal" process to take it's course, even if all this is proven illegal and thrown out, people released, etc, nothing will happen to the people who brought it on. Those who have the power to hold accountable only reached the position of power by being amenable to others in power. We likely wont have trials against the individuals picking mothers and fathers up off the street for a bonus, we wont have trials against the people who offered the bonuses either. They'll disappear and come back when the times are more kind to their sick world view of violence and cruelty.
• mike50 1y ago
  https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-h-chapter-4 https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-h-chapter...
• oddsockmachine 1y ago
  Your point about orphaned records resonates with me, but for a much simpler (or stupider) "use case". I took a domestic flight earlier this year and foolishly showed my British passport as ID. I had returned to the country the day before, it just happened to be in my pocket. My green card was clipped to the front of it. After checking the identification page, the TSA agent flipped through the pages of entry stamps, visas, etc. There, they found all my old US work visas, which have long since expired. The agent was convinced that, since I have expired visas, I must be here illegally and would have to "come with [her]". I pointed out that I have a valid green card, so I'm here legally, and that of course every visa in the book has expired because - well that's what they do. It took 30 minutes, multiple staff being called over, supervisors, etc before I was allowed to continue. At every step, the presence of the expired visas was a mark against me. Never got an apology or recognition that they were wrong, just eventually told I could be on my way. I truly fear that overzealous thugs will use any "evidence" to prove their presuppositions, like your orphaned records. (I've naturalized since then, and carry my passport card around religiously, for all the good it may do...)
• randerson 1y ago
  Can someone remind me why this fragmented identity system is preferable to a National ID? I get that nobody wants to be tracked by the government. But we are already being tracked... just imperfectly to the point where innocent people are being jailed. The question should be how accurate do we want the government's data on us to be. And how much of our taxpayer money do we want to spend on companies like Palantir to fuzzy match our data across systems when we could simplify this all with a primary key.
  • beej71 1y ago
    I think this is a valid question. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that multiple conflicting records introduce a doubt about the veracity of those records. So we might be able to consider that there has been a mistake made. Contrast that to a single identification with an error. In that case, there is no way to tell that an error has been made, and very little recourse.
  • kube-system 1y ago
    > Can someone remind me why this fragmented identity system is preferable to a National ID? States prefer having the power to issue ID cards and all of the control that grants them, they do not want to give up those powers, and politically the states have enough political and legal power to keep it this way. Don’t make the mistake of presuming that this the result of a flawed cooperative system. It isn’t — it’s adversarial. Just look at how long states fought to stop Real ID legislation.
  • dylan604 1y ago
    Because when it is convenient, people like to think state's rights means something and that the federal government is the wrong place for things like this. Giving a national ID cedes power from the states to the fed. Or so discussions go
  • noodlesUK 1y ago
    This argument rings especially true in the U.S. where there is already a primary key in use every day. The SSN serves as a universal enumerator but without canonical data. If the U.S. wanted to have a national ID system with rules, a defined scope, and redress procedures when things went wrong, and established it in the open, following a democratic process, I would be much happier. The system we are getting instead has all the downsides of centralisation, with none of the upsides.
• kotaKat 1y ago
  I'm also thinking about people that could get caught up at the border crossing back and forth on the regular because of this. If you get captured as part of this Mobile Fortify stuff, it sounds like it's going to merge it with all other CBP records you have (including all border entry interactions). Pulling up at the passport desk or at a land crossing is just begging for the officer to see that an ICE HSI agent pulled you at a protest and scanned your face to pull you in for "secondary screening" for "higher risk factors" going forward and throwing nice glowing red targets on your back.
• exasperaited 1y ago
  Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? If you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient —- that clearly is happening to British citizens -- but nobody is going to pin you to the ground until you can't breathe. We appear to be getting the benefit of some doubt (unless we have opinions). And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway. Perhaps carry any paperwork you need, definitely carry any medication you'll need for a few days. As to whether the officer will ignore evidence presented: that is clearly what they are being told to do. There are lawful citizens carrying their papers with them and there's video of an ICE agent mockingly saying "what papers?" Because on the ground it's not about immigration status really, it's about race and white power and sheer numbers of arrests to meet Stephen Miller's quotas.
  • mattgreenrocks 1y ago
    > Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? They've certainly been held in custody, though. Unfortunately, lots of people are going to arrive at a first-hand understanding of the oft-repeated systems adage: "the purpose of a system is what it does."
    • exasperaited 1y ago
      She was lying, is what I meant. She is a liar. Re: Stafford Beer, we're beyond that in so many ways —- what in ordinary times might be considered an emergent, unthinking consequence of this system is what it was actually designed to do: the terror and arbitrary quality or even the perception that the USA is hostile to foreigners, is not an accidental, emergent quality of the operation. It's Stephen Miller's intent. If you were to take a truly Stafford Beer approach to this, then you might say the purpose of this system is to desensitise Americans to the arbitrary and/or violent expression of presidential power. But when you combine that with blowing up boats that contain no combatants and could have been interdicted, the use of selective prosecution, and the confidence with which they say, look, that is exactly what we're doing, even that feels like it is pretty close to text, certainly not unconscious subtext.
• matthewdgreen 1y ago
  The correct answer is that you’re a US citizen unless proved not to be. That’s how the US has always worked, since we’ve made a long-term societal decision not to require papers or allow extrajudicial treatment of our people. This app and everything behind it is foundationally wrong and unamerican.
  • UncleEntity 1y ago
    The thing I think most people forget is why society made the decision that the government requires a neutral third-party to be consulted to determine if there is probable cause to conduct a search of "persons, houses, papers, and effects". Otherwise, you have a 'king' issuing general warrants which allow federal agents to search and seize anyone they want in the course of their investigations based on 'feels'. What makes it even worse is some court said racial profiling is sufficient reason to conduct a Terry stop to determine if the person is engaged in (civil) criminal activity and lets law enforcement demand they show their papers or be scanned by some dodgy app.
  • dylan604 1y ago
    Who cares about correct answers. While technically correct, it means nothing in the world of today. Those in power believe unless you can prove you are a citizen, you are not. It is only correct answer if that's how people are behaving.
    • tremon 1y ago
      You're being too generous. Once you are targeted for whatever reason, you are not a citizen unless you manage to publicly prove that you are, and they will fight tooth and nail to deny you any such opportunity.
  • dboreham 1y ago
    How much you believe this might depend on which regional bubble you're in. I live in Montana and around here I have an expectation that while there might be the odd rogue law enforcement person roaming the state, generally things still work like America. Meanwhile last week I was in LA for a family thing and caught some TV ads playing there. That dog-killing gnome woman was on TV saying something like "We will hunt you down and deport you, there is no hiding, leave now". Initially I thought I was watching some comedy skit, but no it was an official US government advert. Whether I'm in Montana or in LA vastly changes my perception of what's considered ok in America today.
• pandaman 1y ago
  The databases you are concerned about are, most likely, not indexed by pictures so how does it matter if your identity is determined by face, fingerprints, passport, or another government identification document?
• dataflow 1y ago
  I assume you mean your parents naturalized? In which case I think you(r parents) should have been given a certificate of citizenship for you at that point, along with their own certificates of naturalization - was that not the case? (Not suggesting anything about enforcement practices - just trying to understand what the edge cases are like.)
  • noodlesUK 1y ago
    Nope. I was born abroad to a U.S. citizen who didn’t meet the physical presence criteria to pass on citizenship. I came to the U.S. as a child on an IR-2 green card, then when the CCA became law I automatically became a citizen. My parents applied for a passport for me, and in the process the department of state presumably shredded my green card. I don’t have a certificate of citizenship and I’m not eligible to apply for one, as I no longer live in the U.S. Unfortunately USCIS doesn’t know anything about this (as it was all handled by the department of state), and presumably thinks I’m an alien who abandoned their status.
    • dataflow 1y ago
      Wow, I see. In a sane world, I would assume the passport would be enough, so hopefully this won't cause you issues, but I can certainly imagine things going wrong. That was quite fascinating, thanks for explaining.
• overfeed 1y ago
  > Will these hastily deployed systems be able to cope with the complex realities of real people? Cope with?! These systems and procedures are designed to circumvent the "complex" realities and give cover for deporting citizens and legal residents. So maybe you have a passport, but you've been attending protests, and perhaps even dared to be lippy towards an ICE agent; your passport is going to the shredder, and your ass to Liberia. I don't know how folk keep assuming DHS/ICE are acting in good faith - a shocking number of people continue to be oblivious until the agents come for them or theirs.