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> It's important for the project as whole to be able to > move forward and rely on modern tools and technologies > and not be held back by trying to shoehorn mo

> It's important for the project as whole to be able to > move forward and rely on modern tools and technologies > and not be held back by trying to shoehorn modern software > on retro computing devices. Rust is the present and the future and it's quite logical that it becomes a key requirement in Linux distributions, but I'm really not convinced by the wording here… This last sentence feels needlessly antagonistic.

jchw 1y ago
I suspect if this mailing list post doesn't go too under the radar, that last sentence will be a source of major regret.
- noobermin 1y ago
  And if it is it absolutely is indicative of their opinion and absolutely deserved.
IshKebab 1y ago
Feels accurate to me. He's clearly anticipating the "but how will I run Debian on my PDP-11??" naysayers that always try to derail things.
- tialaramex 1y ago
  Right. I do have some nostalgia for installing Linux on a brand new PC which had less total RAM than my computer today has cache, but we need to be clear eyed about what makes sense for a maintained piece of software. I also have feelings about steam trains, but burning coal is not a sensible way to power a train in 2025. A nostalgia-fuelled Linux distro, maybe using a deliberately slimmed down or retro kernel, and chosen software could make a lot more sense than keep trying to squeeze Debian onto hardware that was already obsolete at the turn of the century while also promoting Debian as a viable choice for a brand new laptop.
  - BobBagwill 1y ago
    > I also have feelings about steam trains, but burning coal is not a sensible way to power a train in 2025. Solved problem: United States Patent Application 3127321 Date of Patent March 31, 1964 NUCLEAR REACTOR FOR A RAILWAY VEHICLE
    - tialaramex 1y ago
      Very Fallout
- DaSHacka 1y ago
  Or those annoying nagging "well, what if I don't have an X86_64 CPU that was made in the last five years?", to which obviously our response should be: "get different hardware LOL, closedwontfix"
  - IshKebab 1y ago
    No, supporting 5 year old mainstream hardware is a very reasonable thing to do. Supporting 20 year old hardware that barely anyone used even when it was new is not.
    - tialaramex 1y ago
      Indeed. Four targets are identified as potentially affected: alpha, hppa, m68k and sh4 To be fair, lots of people did use Motorola 68xxx CPUs when those were new, it's just that it was 40+ years ago in products like the Commodore Amiga. The SH4 is most popularly connected to the Dreamcast, Sega's video game console from back when Sega made video game consoles. The Alpha and PA Risc were seen in relatively recent and more conventional hardware, but in much tinier numbers, and when I say relatively I mean early this century, these are not products anybody bought five years ago, and when they were on sale they were niche products for a niche which in practical terms was eaten by Microsoft.
      - julian-klode 1y ago
        Alpha and PA Risc where the predecessors of Itanium fwiw if you want to feel old in an easy to understand way.
  - NewsaHackO 1y ago
    Is your point that rust doesn't run on a computer built in 2020?
    - DaSHacka 1y ago
      No, but that if it did not, I am not so sure that would even be seen as a problem.
- aragilar 1y ago
  But the message is not just "we will require Rust and here's the timeline (and some things may break)", it's also "I know what I'm going to break and it's your problem to fix it" (via the CC line) and ends in a passive-aggressive way (the phrase "Thank you for your understanding." is basically a polite way of saying "and fuck you too."). This gets people off-side, and makes it more likely they're going to throw up barriers rather than either do what you ask or find some other way to collaborate/achieve the ideal outcome.

jchw 1y ago

I suspect if this mailing list post doesn't go too under the radar, that last sentence will be a source of major regret.

noobermin 1y ago
And if it is it absolutely is indicative of their opinion and absolutely deserved.

IshKebab 1y ago

Feels accurate to me. He's clearly anticipating the "but how will I run Debian on my PDP-11??" naysayers that always try to derail things.

tialaramex 1y ago
Right. I do have some nostalgia for installing Linux on a brand new PC which had less total RAM than my computer today has cache, but we need to be clear eyed about what makes sense for a maintained piece of software. I also have feelings about steam trains, but burning coal is not a sensible way to power a train in 2025. A nostalgia-fuelled Linux distro, maybe using a deliberately slimmed down or retro kernel, and chosen software could make a lot more sense than keep trying to squeeze Debian onto hardware that was already obsolete at the turn of the century while also promoting Debian as a viable choice for a brand new laptop.
- BobBagwill 1y ago
  > I also have feelings about steam trains, but burning coal is not a sensible way to power a train in 2025. Solved problem: United States Patent Application 3127321 Date of Patent March 31, 1964 NUCLEAR REACTOR FOR A RAILWAY VEHICLE
  - tialaramex 1y ago
    Very Fallout
DaSHacka 1y ago
Or those annoying nagging "well, what if I don't have an X86_64 CPU that was made in the last five years?", to which obviously our response should be: "get different hardware LOL, closedwontfix"
- IshKebab 1y ago
  No, supporting 5 year old mainstream hardware is a very reasonable thing to do. Supporting 20 year old hardware that barely anyone used even when it was new is not.
  - tialaramex 1y ago
    Indeed. Four targets are identified as potentially affected: alpha, hppa, m68k and sh4 To be fair, lots of people did use Motorola 68xxx CPUs when those were new, it's just that it was 40+ years ago in products like the Commodore Amiga. The SH4 is most popularly connected to the Dreamcast, Sega's video game console from back when Sega made video game consoles. The Alpha and PA Risc were seen in relatively recent and more conventional hardware, but in much tinier numbers, and when I say relatively I mean early this century, these are not products anybody bought five years ago, and when they were on sale they were niche products for a niche which in practical terms was eaten by Microsoft.
    - julian-klode 1y ago
      Alpha and PA Risc where the predecessors of Itanium fwiw if you want to feel old in an easy to understand way.
- NewsaHackO 1y ago
  Is your point that rust doesn't run on a computer built in 2020?
  - DaSHacka 1y ago
    No, but that if it did not, I am not so sure that would even be seen as a problem.
aragilar 1y ago
But the message is not just "we will require Rust and here's the timeline (and some things may break)", it's also "I know what I'm going to break and it's your problem to fix it" (via the CC line) and ends in a passive-aggressive way (the phrase "Thank you for your understanding." is basically a polite way of saying "and fuck you too."). This gets people off-side, and makes it more likely they're going to throw up barriers rather than either do what you ask or find some other way to collaborate/achieve the ideal outcome.